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Author Topic: Alternative TP formats 1/2"  (Read 19641 times)

Offline ironbut

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« on: September 02, 2009, 11:28:51 AM »
It is good to see general interests in fine reel to reel machine had greatly increased lately and some of the real experts in the field are joining the TP community to share their experiences.

Ki

I agree 100%!
I'm so happy that the Tape Project has attracted owners and those knowledgeable about the finest tape machines built. Aside from the studios who've chosen to continue recording with magnetic tape and dedicated collectors, the sound on the Tape Project tapes has given new life to what remains of these industrial works of art. I guess you could say that the playback of these tapes is " The Killer App".
Now all we need to do is get the boys to follow through with some special order 1/2" dups and get one one a Stephens!
steve koto
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Offline newmedia

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 01:11:02 PM »
Steve:

Great idea -- 1/2" dups!!  Subject for another (I didn't see one) thread?

Do "the boys" have any 1/2" equipment?  2T? 3T? 4T?

Any chance that some recordings could be done with a center channel?  Plus room ambience?

4.0 would playback beautifully on a 5.1 speaker layout (i.e. both "surround" the same)!!

Why limit ourselves to 2T . . . ??

Mark Stahlman
New York City

Stellavox: SM8, SU8, SP8, AMI48 / Nagra: IV-SJ, Digital / Otari: MTR-20, MTR-12 / Sound Devices: 744T, 788 / AMEK: BC II, TAC Bullet / Infinite Slope: 2.0, 1.8, 1.0, 0.8 / Bruel & Kjaer: 2133, 2144, Pulse

Offline ironbut

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 02:09:19 PM »
From time to time there's been talk of producing 1/2" dups of each release and now that things have settled down a little with standard production and shipping, I think that it may be time to bring this subject up again.

Regarding different formats, the original concept for the Tape Project was to duplicate the masters and give ordinary folks the opportunity to hear what mastering engineers have been privy to all these years. So, that would probably preclude any tapes that couldn't be had in an original stereo+? format. Of course, that brings up the 3 track Decca's and Mercuries.
Unfortunately, the audience for these would be extremely limited but I certainly wouldn't presume to speak for "the boys" in what they might find interesting to produce on a special order basis (just like the 1/2" releases would have to be I'd think).
steve koto
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Offline newmedia

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 02:40:14 PM »
Steve:

I'm new around here, so I'll listen and wait for whatever issues the originals need to resolve regarding tape formats. 

Sorry for the dumb question but are all the TP albums originally recorded in 2-tracks only?  Is there somewhere on the site where the recording setups are described?

That said, as Paul Klipsch and Saul Marantz apparently stressed, the biggest mistake the audio industry ever made was fixating on 2-channel stereo and not making room for the center channel.  The reason given is always mass-consumer economics -- moving people from mono to stereo (two-channels) was thought to be enough of a leap.

Apparently, 3T 1/2" tape was the studio "standard" for much of the 50's and 60's.  The mixing boards were also typically 3 output.

Tom Fine has stated that his father's group generally intended the center track to be a mono-mix or for soloist mic'ing, as was typical.

However, some actually recorded ensembles with three spaced omnis -- straight to the 3T tape.  Like at Columbia Studios on 30th Street.

If you haven't heard the Sony Miles Davis SACD releases, you are really missing something.  Straight from 3T tape to DSD.  LCR.  Fantastic you-are-there sound!

If we are going to create new high-quality tape recordings then why limit ourselves to two channel playback?

Mark Stahlman
New York City
Stellavox: SM8, SU8, SP8, AMI48 / Nagra: IV-SJ, Digital / Otari: MTR-20, MTR-12 / Sound Devices: 744T, 788 / AMEK: BC II, TAC Bullet / Infinite Slope: 2.0, 1.8, 1.0, 0.8 / Bruel & Kjaer: 2133, 2144, Pulse

Offline docb

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 03:04:40 PM »
We are format extremists ourselves, and yes we can handle any format that has been mentioned so far. Please do understand that these custom format requests would end up being quite expensive. If price is not an issue, we would be happy to talk to folks about it. I'm not trying to discourage anyone who really wants to pursue the idea, but I also don't want to create any mistaken impressions about the expense involved in what we're being asked to do. The entire line would have to be shut down to reconfigure even one machine for 1/2" 2 track, and then again to reconfigure back. So we lose valuable production time for the existing 1/4" format albums and we have to have an engineer on the clock to do this reconfiguration. We would have to work up packaging for these presumably very limited production items. Our existing packaging is expensive enough in 2000 piece order quantities. 10 or 20 pieces pricing that we would probably look at for a small custom run would be outrageous. Obviously 1/2" tape stock costs twice as much as 1/4". The costs start to add up really, really fast. If I had to spitball I'd guess we would have to price 1/2" 2 track one offs at maybe $1500 per album. That might not be that outrageous a price when you consider the quality potential compared to any other format.

Now if you want 1/2" three track, you're going to pay Paul to remaster that album just for you on top of everything else already mentioned - if we can get the original three track. And I don't even want to think about trying to convince even our small group of very enthused subscribers that they now need to buy a custom 1/2" three track machine that will be useless for anything but the few three channel tapes we can reissue in a year.

It can all be done, but the client will need to be willing to accept the expenses involved up front.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline newmedia

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 03:26:09 PM »
Dan:

Thanks.  Makes sense.  This is a business, not a DIY project, and it's a two-channel audiophile world -- for better or (in my opinion) worse.

Sorry for my ignorance but does the TP start from 2T "repro" masters or from multi-track originals?  Is the information available somewhere on the site about how these albums were recorded -- mics, tracking, studio equipment, etc?

Mark Stahlman
New York City
Stellavox: SM8, SU8, SP8, AMI48 / Nagra: IV-SJ, Digital / Otari: MTR-20, MTR-12 / Sound Devices: 744T, 788 / AMEK: BC II, TAC Bullet / Infinite Slope: 2.0, 1.8, 1.0, 0.8 / Bruel & Kjaer: 2133, 2144, Pulse

Offline ironbut

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 03:56:18 PM »
Hey Mark,

Actually the home page of the Tape Project should be able to answer some of your very relevant questions.
Lots of the members here enter here through that site but quickly forget about it while Doc does his best to keep it up to date.
Here's the link;

http://www.tapeproject.com/

One thing that I don't recall being reflected on that site is the fact that the source of the running masters varies somewhat. In the case of the Arnold Overtures tape for instance, the running master is actually made from the session tapes played on Keith Johnson's focused head recorder. I'm sure you'll agree that this is as close as it comes and is indicative of the extreme measures that the principles are willing to go through to provide the very finest playback possible.
Of course many companies who still have the original session tapes are reluctant to let them out of their vaults. But I have a lot of faith in Paul and the gang that what they're able to obtain will be as good as possible.
steve koto
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Offline docb

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Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 06:20:29 PM »
Hey Steve, maybe this thread should be splintered off and moved. I'll let you flex your moderator muscles.

The tapes we use are, for lack of a better term, the "original masters". This means they are the tape from which the lacquer for the original release would have been cut. We refuse to use safety copies. Regarding more modern recordings which have been recorded to multitrack tape, we don't remix them, we use the mixed down two channel original master tape made from the multitrack tape. Our goal is to deliver to our subscribers all that those original master recordings can give.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline newmedia

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 04:35:30 AM »
Folks:

Excellent idea to reboot this thread over here!

Since I seem to have started this, let me clarify my initial question -- what about an analog format for 5.1 system playback?

Yes, there could be interest in a 2T 1/2" version (or even 2T 1") for the "format extremists" but it seems to me this would have marginal benefits and considerable cost.

As well noted, the TP start from "the 'original masters'. This means they are the tape from which the lacquer for the original release would have been cut."

Herein lies the issue.  "Lacquer" (excluding Quad) is a two-channel medium.  But the world has moved on to many channels. 

The digital formats of SACD and DVD-A support six-channels of un-compressed audio.  Many audiophiles have discovered the benefits of having a center channel and hall ambience and have installed home theaters with high-end audio.  Thousands of discs have been issued.  Most mastering suites have been upgraded.  Many ensemble recordings -- jazz, classical, etc. -- are now mastered for 5.1.

Why limit a new analog format to only two channels?

Tape decks are inherently multi-channel.  Why restrict ourselves to a 1950's format that was, by many accounts, a "sonic" mistake in the first place-- forced on the world by lowest common-denominator consumer economics?

Why not four-channel 1/4" (aka Quad Tape)?  Or, the largely abandoned (therefore cheap) 4-channel 1/2" studio format?

LCRS.  Left, Center, Right, Surround (aka Ambience).

What a beautiful sound it would be.  And just imagine the impact at the next CES!

Mark Stahlman
New York City
Stellavox: SM8, SU8, SP8, AMI48 / Nagra: IV-SJ, Digital / Otari: MTR-20, MTR-12 / Sound Devices: 744T, 788 / AMEK: BC II, TAC Bullet / Infinite Slope: 2.0, 1.8, 1.0, 0.8 / Bruel & Kjaer: 2133, 2144, Pulse

Offline ironbut

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 10:21:55 AM »
I have to confess that I'm a pretty much a stick in the mud as far as multi-channel goes (perhaps given the extra funds I won't be at some point). Don't get me wrong though, it's not that I haven't heard the real world advantages of at least having a center channel which I believe could be done with any 2 channel original and could in fact be done very well.

I know that Paul and Michael aren't as stodgy as I am regarding multi channel and luckily they're the ones that are important. It is after all Paul Stubblebine Mastering and DVD.
Unless I'm totally wrong, it would require another generation away from the master tape in many cases. But, if we're talking about a special order release there's no reason that you couldn't have both the standard and remastered release.
steve koto
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Offline docb

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 10:46:58 AM »
The older music that is now being reissued in surround is being digitized at the multitrack level, then remixed to surround in the digital realm. To do what we are talking about would require a new, different remix that has been done in the analog realm.


Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline steveidosound

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2009, 12:39:17 PM »
The older music that is now being reissued in surround is being digitized at the multitrack level, then remixed to surround in the digital realm. To do what we are talking about would require a new, different remix that has been done in the analog realm.

It would be hard to find masters of things done totally in the analog realm to more than 2 channel, without an "interpretive re-mix" of multitrack masters if they exist. Exceptions might be quad mixes done for those analog  4 ch. formats, and any 1/2" 3 track done with a stereo plus center format, some of which have been re-issued in digital format.
In my system, I almost always listen to 2 ch. sources with some sort of "ambiance recovery" (L-R) rear scheme and frequently with derived center (L+R) and sub as well. If not overdone, it can enhance the basic 2 ch. experience.
But  my system is sort of loosely based around the quad  and 5.1 formats and I actually still listen to discrete quad  incl. R2R and would think it quite fun to have new material in that 1/4", 7 1/2 ips. 4 track format. Heck, even 15 ips. on 10.5" reels - give all those Teac 3340s something new to do nowdays.
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline steveidosound

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 12:53:32 PM »
An interesting point about the 2ch. TP masters has been brought up. It probably varies from tape to tape, but how does one come up with  the original 2 track mix "master tape"? Not a safety copy -I understand that, and not a digital copy of course. But I understood that "the tape the lacquer was cut from" might be eq'd for best results when cutting. This was what was said made all the early CDs sound so bad - they were using "the tape the lacquer was cut from", with compensating eq and possibly compression and other processing for that disc mastering process. Do you at Tape Project then find the previous generation that is the artist/producer agreed upon "final mix" before any final eq, compression etc. were printed to tape for the vinyl rendition or is this just done on the fly by the disc mastering engineer, and not part of the 2ch. "master tape"? It does make a difference and I am sure you compare with other formats to see what differences may exist.
Without giving away all the secrets, could you comment on what becomes "the reference"?
BTW, it is great that you have Keith Johnson's focused head recorder and tapes as the source for some of the releases.
I can't imagine a better reference than that!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 12:58:54 PM by steveidosound »
Steve Williams

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Offline High and Outside

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2009, 01:22:35 PM »
Whoever said "the tape the lacquer was cut from" misspoke. As you point out, that tape is sometimes the original mix, and sometimes an EQ copy.

We always work from the original tape. In the case of the Decca and Reference titles, and some of the early jazz titles, that means the tapes that were run at the original session, just spliced together. In the case of something that was recorded multitrack, like the Robert Cray or The Band, that means the tape that was recording right off the console's mix bus during the mixdown.

Finding the original can sometimes be quite an adventure, but we don't go into production until we have found it. That happened, for instance, on our Staple Singers album. The vault first pulled up a safety copy. I actually took a couple of demo reels to the last CES made from the safety, just so I could give folks a taste of things to come. Then I carefully collected those demo reels after the show, since I knew the vault would eventually come up with the original mixes. They did, we mastered from them, and we are now in production on that tape.
Paul Stubblebine
Managing Director, The TapeProject

Offline steveidosound

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2009, 01:40:43 PM »
Whoever said "the tape the lacquer was cut from" misspoke. As you point out, that tape is sometimes the original mix, and sometimes an EQ copy.

We always work from the original tape. In the case of the Decca and Reference titles, and some of the early jazz titles, that means the tapes that were run at the original session, just spliced together. In the case of something that was recorded multitrack, like the Robert Cray or The Band, that means the tape that was recording right off the console's mix bus during the mixdown.

Finding the original can sometimes be quite an adventure, but we don't go into production until we have found it. That happened, for instance, on our Staple Singers album. The vault first pulled up a safety copy. I actually took a couple of demo reels to the last CES made from the safety, just so I could give folks a taste of things to come. Then I carefully collected those demo reels after the show, since I knew the vault would eventually come up with the original mixes. They did, we mastered from them, and we are now in production on that tape.

That makes total sense to me. I wonder though, if either another "processed" tape was used for subsequent re-issues on, say, SACD or even CD or iTunes or if a heavily processed, done-on-the-fly and not printed to tape vinyl master has become "the reference" will people deem the purist result that you come up with subjectively "better" than what they are used to if they know the album well?
I would hope that to be true, but you never know. Hopefully the processing artifacts don't become a part of the artistic statement.
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...