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Author Topic: Alternative TP formats 1/2"  (Read 19630 times)

Offline docb

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2009, 01:41:24 PM »
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Whoever said "the tape the lacquer was cut from" misspoke.

That was me, oversimplifying.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
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Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline steveidosound

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2009, 01:56:11 PM »
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Whoever said "the tape the lacquer was cut from" misspoke.

That was me, oversimplifying.

Sorry, I really wasn't trying to play inquisitor. I would imagine it might be hard for even the places you license the tape from, to determine which is the final reference  2 ch. master mix tape. And then the question I brought up of "re-masters" of one sort or another for various reasons and formats becoming the "new reference".
I for one would love to hear what you guys could do with the original session multi-track masters mixing down to a new analog multi-channel format.
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline newmedia

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2009, 04:30:46 AM »
Folks:

All good points being made.  If the TP *requires* that there was NO digital processing in the mastering chain, then this would clearly restrict the available multi-channel sources.

Are any of the newer "purist" recording efforts using any of the modern multi-mic surround arrays (Schoeps, Holophone, etc.)?  Are there any masters available that used Decca-tree or even three spaced omnis?  How about the Bell Labs 5-mic Sennheiser array?

This was why I was asking (earlier in this split thread) about the mic'ing techniques used for TP sources.  Multi-channel mic'ing is 50+ years old, of course.  I was guessing that the TP sessions were not simply coming from two coincident microphones.

Even in those cases where two-channels is all that's available, the center and ambience could be "matrixed."  The Trifield matrix (Gerzon etal) is perhaps the best for the center and has long been available both as an outboard box for mastering and in Meridian amps for playback.  The rear ambience could be as simple as a L+R sum, attenuated (say 6dB) and phase reversed to simulate a rea-wall reflection, as Mark Wilder did for the Sony SACD multi-channel releases of Miles Davis, Brubeck, etc.  The rear can always be turned off, as Wilder suggested in an email to me. 

IMHO, the center channel is the key improvment.  Asking a two-channel system to fill in the "phantom" middle is, well, not really practical for most source material -- psychoacoustically speaking.  Yes, if you start with Blumlein coincident figure-8 mics and arrange the speakers closer and pointed towards your head, you will achieve significant spacial accuracy.  But no one does that -- other than Robert Greene, apparently.

Then there is the problem of the "sweet-spot."  If TP subscribers are interested in sharing their music, that would be greatly enchanced by having a center channel.  Unless, you insist that your friends all sit on your lap. <g>

Btw, has anyone ever listened to TP tapes played back through Ralph Glasgal's Ambiophonics system?  It takes a two-channel input and cross-cancels the L/R and then adds hall ambience.  Quite a powerful acoustic statement, with a multi-person sweet-spot to boot.

Mark Stahlman
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mep

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2009, 08:33:59 AM »
I think it is clear that the TP was founded on the principle of releasing 2 channel recordings made from the original master tapes.  Therefore, it strikes me odd that someone who desires to hear music with at least 3 channels and preferably more would be asking why the TP doesn?t release their recordings in a multi-channel format.  I for one have absolutely no interest in multi-channel recordings.  I also wouldn?t join a multi-channel music forum and ask the principles why they don?t release their multi-channel music in stereo because I think stereo is superior.  It?s kind of like going to a Chinese restaurant and ordering a hamburger and telling the owners that you hate Chinese food.

Offline newmedia

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2009, 09:32:12 AM »
Mark:

I understand your viewpoint -- which you share with many other experienced audiophiles.  Those who have finely honed their two-channel stereo systems have every right to their bias and to their enjoyment.

However, to extend your analogy, are you saying that you will only eat Chinese food and have absolutely no interest in French cuisine?

The history of sound reproduction is far more interesting and complicated than two-channel stereo.  As best I can tell, two-channels were selected by the electronics industry not for audiophiles but for lowest common-denominator consumers. 

Indeed, as you may know, the early experiments on "periphonics" done by Bell Labs -- in which they sat an audience in a concert hall and tried to simulate a performance over loudspeakers -- concluded that the minimum number needed was three channels.  This is why theatrical sound (i.e. movie theaters) has generally started with three speakers and expanded from there.  Such early pioneers in home audio as Paul Klipsch and Saul Marantz reportedly viewed two-channels as a terrible mistake made for low-fi compromise reasons.

The fact that many talented people have made a "silk-purse," so to speak, from the two-channel commercial mass-market standard is a testament to people's ingenuity.  Bravo!

I'm happy to be corrected but I thought the TP was founded to bring high-quality analog tape to a wide audience.  Analog tape is not two-channel.  It is inherently multi-channel, obviously.

My suggestion is that the TP *consider* alternatives.  You seem to imply that is excluded -- on principle.

That would be unfortunate, IMHO.

Mark Stahlman
NewYork City
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Offline ironbut

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2009, 10:19:05 AM »
The Tape Project is a rather small operation. All the principles have "day jobs" such and running a mastering/recording studio and in Doc's case, running the Bottlehead Corp.. At the moment, it's not what I'd call a money making machine either and if it weren't for their "day jobs", I'd venture to say that it couldn't exist in it's current form.
It's based on the fact that the sound of master tapes are in many cases, audibly superior to any other reproduced musical source even todays digital masters. The addition of any type of processing not only introduces colorations but in practice, requires an additional "generation" of duplication which also degrades the sound.
The incredible clarity and lifelike reproduction of these tapes can never be conveyed in words but can only be experienced. I've done a number of demo's of these tapes and the word I hear over and over is "alive".
Do yourself a favor and buy one of these tapes (I'd suggest the Arnold Overtures which is an amazing recording) and give it a listen. These tapes really speak for themselves so I'll leave it at that.

Regarding different formats, I think that the principles will always have an open mind towards anything that has the potential to improve the purity of the sound in some way. I think that's one of the great advantages of smaller companies like this. They can be very flexible.
On the other hand, it makes it difficult to branch out. It's been asked many times if they could make smaller format tapes for instance (7 1/2 ips 1/4 track). To which the answer has been, they'd welcome others to produce these more generally accessible tapes but this isn't what the Tape Project does. It's one thing to work hard on a project and accept the headaches involved with very little return if it's a product based on principle and ideals. It's an entirely different thing if you know you're shooting at a price point.
steve koto
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mep

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2009, 10:33:02 AM »
Mark-Your extension of my food analogy was kind of strange.  I also don't understand your point that analog tape is not two channel.  I am specifically referring to the master tapes the TP works from.  They are two channel.  I know you are convinced that 2 channel stereo is fatally flawed and therefore that implies that all of us that have spent money on our 2 channel systems and software are misguided.  If only we would see the light...

There probably is a good case to be made for 3 channel sound (L-C-R).  Unfortunately, how many 3 channel master tapes are out there besides the Mercury catalog?  It is just my opinion that you are barking up the wrong tree in this forum.  2 track 15 ips tapes are already a very esoteric small niche market.  To now ask it to be something else that is even more esoteric (multi-channel analog tape which would require a new tape deck, preamp, amp, speakers, etc.) just strikes me as odd.  But hey, what do I know?

Reading some of your posts on this forum kind of makes me feel like a guy who thought he was walking into a strip club only to find out it was all a ploy and instead of seeing some hot naked chicks, he has some hellfire and brimstone preacher telling him how evil he is for wanting to go to a strip club in the first place.  Kind of makes you think the preacher should apologize and give the poor guy some money to get a lap dance at a real strip club for having to listen to his rant.

Offline newmedia

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2009, 01:13:38 PM »
Mark:

Ha!!  The analogy between your audiophile experience and a lapdance is priceless!!

The psychology of online forums is endlessly fascinating.  People say the darnest things.

Let's see if anyone else is being entertained by this excursion into alternative lifestyles.

Mark Stahlman
New York City

P.S. Please re-read the previous post -- any two-channel master can easily be turned into three-channels via Trifield.  Michael Gerzon was one smart audiophile.

P.P.S.  Using Ampex 350's to put a coat of tubular "paint" on the output of an MX-55 is a truly remarkable use of a technology more commonly used to provide mic-pre's with a peculiar coloration.  Very inventive.  I've owned both but never thought to put them together.  Maybe I'll marry an Ampex PR-10 with my Stellavox this weekend to hear what the offspring sound like. <g>

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Offline newmedia

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2009, 01:38:58 PM »
Steve:

I quite agree that the beauty of a well made analog master tape is a thing to behold!

I've made a few (can't say how well they were done), heard many more and even own a couple that I think are priceless.

Of course the TP is a labor of love. 

Thanks for the opportunity to offer some ideas on how to broaden the appeal to another audience.

Mark Stahlman
New York City
Stellavox: SM8, SU8, SP8, AMI48 / Nagra: IV-SJ, Digital / Otari: MTR-20, MTR-12 / Sound Devices: 744T, 788 / AMEK: BC II, TAC Bullet / Infinite Slope: 2.0, 1.8, 1.0, 0.8 / Bruel & Kjaer: 2133, 2144, Pulse

Offline ironbut

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2009, 02:06:17 PM »
Mark S.,

I aways enjoy discussions of this type and that is the "beauty" of the internet.
I dare say that without it who knows how long it might have taken for the TP to grow into a healthy enterprise. And as membership here on this forum reached 650 I'm amazed that there are this many reel to reel users still around.

Which begs the question, how many would make designing and building a entirely new machine a worthwhile endeavor?
Hmm,.. may be a good idea for a new thread!

Stay tuned!
steve koto
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Offline High and Outside

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2009, 03:22:02 PM »
A couple of us here at the Tape Project are also fans of multichannel playback of music.

We aren't currently pursuing any projects that involve multichannel originals. (For clarity, multichannel refers to the playback end. If music is originally produced with many tracks, the way pop music is done these days, that's called multichannel.) The market for good multichannel music recordings has been disappointingly small. If there is any market for multichannel releases on reel to reel, it would probably be microscopic.

However, if you want to hear what good derived L-C-R would sound like from one our tapes, you don't have to wait for us to put one out. Just set up your own L-C-R system, if you haven't already, and play our 2-channel tapes through a trifield decoder.
Paul Stubblebine
Managing Director, The TapeProject

Offline MylesAstor

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2009, 04:01:07 PM »


However, if you want to hear what good derived L-C-R would sound like from one our tapes, you don't have to wait for us to put one out. Just set up your own L-C-R system, if you haven't already, and play our 2-channel tapes through a trifield decoder.

Paul:

Harry Weisfeld owner of VPI has quite a large collection of master tapes (including some RCA classical and soundtracks like Gypsy), many of which were obtained from Bert Whyte. Harry has set up a three channel system for playback of three track tapes using Quads 63 and says the sound is unbelievable. Have yet to hear it but will get down his way one day soon to hear this! We have to face this one fact - this was the way the tapes were really meant to be heard - but you're right that the market for these tapes could probably be counted on two hands.

Myles Astor
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mep

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2009, 05:09:49 PM »
Mark-I don't know what you mean by a tubular coat of paint with regards to the Ampex 350s.  If that is supposed to mean some technicolor palate of coloration, I would take great exception to that.  I find the sound of the Ampex 350s to be very neutral and just correct in their ability to throw a huge soundstage with correctly sized instruments upon that stage and with a degree of realism that escapes most components.  I have to admit that I love the sound of properly designed tube electronics as they bring music alive in a way that I find that SS just can't.  Maybe I will change my mind at some point if I ever here something better, but I find the Ampex 350s to be stunning in their ability to make music come alive and sound real and I wouldn't want to be with out them.

Offline steveidosound

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2009, 12:04:37 AM »


However, if you want to hear what good derived L-C-R would sound like from one our tapes, you don't have to wait for us to put one out. Just set up your own L-C-R system, if you haven't already, and play our 2-channel tapes through a trifield decoder.

Paul:

Harry Weisfeld owner of VPI has quite a large collection of master tapes (including some RCA classical and soundtracks like Gypsy), many of which were obtained from Bert Whyte. Harry has set up a three channel system for playback of three track tapes using Quads 63 and says the sound is unbelievable. Have yet to hear it but will get down his way one day soon to hear this! We have to face this one fact - this was the way the tapes were really meant to be heard - but you're right that the market for these tapes could probably be counted on two hands.

Myles Astor

I heard  1/2" three tracktape through three channel playback at the AES demo in LA  some years ago and even in those circumstances in a hotel meeting room it was pretty amazing. McIntosh tube amps and Altec monitors for a very vintage studio sound. Ampex 351 electronics I think and some vintage tube console in between. They also played them "mixed down" to 2 ch. stereo through 2 speakers to show what the difference was. I can't recall if they played any 2 channel stereo tapes through a derived mono L+R center. Some were 60s pop recordings with the vocalist on the center channel track and the orchestra in stereo.
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline newmedia

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Re: Alternative TP formats 1/2"
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2009, 07:24:49 AM »
Paul etal:

Thanks for your to-the-point business answer.  It's no surprise that you and your colleagues would be multi-channel playback fans.

Size of market:  Unknown.  If there are 10,000's of candidate customers for 2-track TP tapes, you currently have customers counted in the hundreds.  The number people who have (or might buy) 4-track 1/4" players is certainly fewer, maybe in the 1000's, so this would likely be a smaller business opportunity.   Microscopic?  Perhaps, but they might be good customers to have nonetheless.

The number of people with multi-channel SACD/DVD-A music collections is clearly disappointing by mass-market standards but could also be in the 10,000's or more.  As Mark Waldrep of AIX Records says, he has built a very nice business based on those people.  The number of people who are both serious about quality reproduction and who have built 5.1 playback systems could be in the 100,000's.  As we all know, the high-end equipment retailing business largely disappeared years ago and was replaced by home theater showrooms.

Many in the industry were at the AES 3T demo or have heard about it.  Those who have been involved in multi-channel digital releases have heard the masters and have spread the word.  Harry Pearson and others in the press have written their rave reviews and banged on their drums about multi-channel playback.  Despite (or because of) its ubiquity, the inherent single listener sweet-spot and spatial innaccuracy problems with two-channel stereo are widely known.

The TP is a low-volume business no matter how you EQ it.  You are currently fishing in the 2T analog tape pond and doing pretty well.  The pond where those who desire multi-channel tape playback swim is smaller but influential.  Compared to the average audiophile, these are the people "in the know."  Even one well-done multi-channel release would likely get the TP some headlines and interviews that would help expand your 2T business.  Just a friendly suggestion from someone who builds small businesses into big ones (i.e. I'm a venture capitalist) -- which I'm sure touchs on issues that you have already been thinking about.
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