TP-028, Nat Adderley's Work Song is now available

Author Topic: some comments about the "competition"  (Read 7756 times)

Offline docb

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some comments about the "competition"
« on: September 24, 2009, 04:25:39 PM »
I was reading the web site of one of our "competitors". He's not really a competitor, this fellow sells redone Technics machines. The finishes are excellent, I have one of his early redos. In reading his website he seems to feel compelled to sell his product as superior to another competitor. It's pretty clear that he is talking about us. I think this is too bad, as we have always been supportive of anyone who is crazy enough to get into this tape thing. In fact we have sent quite a few customers his way.

I would just like to clarify a few things that are said on his web site:

Firstly, we concentrate on modification of machines and the sale of external playback electronics. We do not buy, restore, repaint, and resell stock machines. Hence we don't really compete with him. I do have a few machines for sale on occasion because I am a pushover and get talked into taking machines that I don't really need in trade for service. They are not cosmetically redone and they tend to sell for a lot less than his because of it - when I happen to have one around.

Secondly there is a comment on his web site that I feel is inaccurate - that our tape path mod increases tape wear. In fact our modification reduces friction on the tape surface by the removal of some fixed guides and the replacement of other fixed guides with ball bearings. It also reduces scrape flutter. I do not know why he is compelled to make the statement, other than he feels that he must create some distinction to sell his machines. I would be happy at any time to make a comparison of the actual tape wear produced by one of his stock machines and one modified by us. I would also be happy to show folks some of the worn out fixed guides that we have replaced. The guides are worn as the abrasive oxide surface of the tape passes over them. The Technics machine is a pretty gentle tape handler whether stock or modified and I suspect it would take quite a bit of time to prove the claim either way.

He says we degrade the performance of the machine by disconnecting the tape counter. We disconnect the tape counter because it tends to create speed instability. The Technics tape machine is a very good sounding machine, but we do not sell only Technics machines and thus we are not afraid to say that the counter is crude at best.

Finally, bear in mind that a stock RS-1500 or RS-1506 does not have the proper IEC playback equalization setting for Tape Project albums, only the RS-1520 does. An RS-1700 can't play our tapes at all. I don't know if this is the current practice but in the past this person was recommending the use of a Technics 12 band equalizer after the tape recorder output to compensate for this. In our opinion adding a Technics equalizer to the playback electronics of the Technics machines in order to emulate the IEC curve will not bring out the best quality from our albums.

There are other odd comments like the thing about power cords, that I think I will just leave alone.

I think that if someone wants to buy one of his machines they should buy it based upon his product's merits. They are beautifully finished showpieces and from what I have seen they are well restored mechanically and are a fine example of a high quality home audio recorder. I would appreciate it if folks would call us to ask about what we really do and why we do so rather than to consider that what he says about our business is accurate. We are always happy to further modify any Technics machine for you, even his. Of course if you're going to pay as much as he charges for a Technics, there are several studio machines that will be in the same general price range and offer better mechanical performance. I would encourage folks to also look at Studer, Ampex ATR100, Nagra T-Audio and Otari studio machines like the MTR-15 if you plan to spend over $3500 on a tape recorder. The current market seems to be relaxing from the artificially high prices that were brought about by speculators when we started the Tape Project three years ago. Recently we have seen some of these studio machines selling for under $1000.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline mikel

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Re: some comments about the "competition"
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2009, 06:05:08 PM »
Doc,

thanks for addressing this issue (and taking the 'High Road' while doing it too). some of my friends have asked me about how the competitors machines and yours compare considering what his website says. your response is much better than my feeble attempts at it (but we agree on the issues).

my recommendation always is to listen and compare for one's self. 2+ years ago that was almost impossible to do. now days if one has the desire to hear these machines playing Tape Project tapes one can do it and decide. there are machine owners, audio club meetings and audio shows all over playing tapes....

the tiny RTR community needs multiple healthy enterprises doing what they do to continue to grow and keep up the flow of great music. hopefully these enterprises will focus on their particular thing. let the customers/listeners speak to comparative performance.

mikel
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 07:42:14 PM by mikel »
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Offline ironbut

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Re: some comments about the "competition"
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2009, 12:42:58 PM »
It really is unfortunate that the above mentioned restorer feels a need criticize any of the other folks who are involved in reel to reel.
I spoke to this gentleman a while back and had him replace some bearings in my Technics. The work he did was fine and I wouldn't have a problem with having him do other repairs for me but when I called to discuss some other things (I was trying to find a spare headblock at the time) the 25 minute rant he rewarded me with, sent me to the nearest bar for a couple of stiff ones!
Yikes! It reminded me of that Monty Python skit when the lady complained about the fork being dirty and the chef and owner killed themselves over it.
I think that these kinds of things are an unfortunate reality and are the result of issues which are personal rather than fact based.
A case in point are a few of the modifications that have been done to my machine which are denounced on the above mentioned site as being worthless. After these were done, I was shocked at the improvements to playback. There is, of course, the possibility that this is all in my head. I happen to think that I have a pretty good aural memory but you don't have to take my word for it.

As many of you know, I've been demoing these tapes at Headfi meets. One of the great things about headphones is that there's no room interaction so if the same person listens to the same set up with the same source material, the sound will be pretty close to identical.
After doing just a couple of the "tape path mods", I took my rig to a meet. Three different regulars were also shocked at the improvements. I make a habit of never mentioning any changes I've made so I get fairly unbiased impressions (sometimes, not good ones either). "What have you done to this thing!" "I didn't think that better resolution was possible,..!" and "Wow, the instruments are totally real now!" Were the types of comments I got (these are paraphrased of course but you get the gist).

So, if you haven't guessed by now, those tape path mods take the sound of the TP tapes from amazing to etherial. You won't hear the results on any old tape but you will on each and every TP tape. The delicate tinkle of a triangle, the texture and separation of acoustic guitars, or the definition of a drum whack. It's really something to behold!

But, to return to the subject of this thread,.. there is more than one way to skin a cat and I don't doubt that over the years, modifications will come and go. In fact, I'm counting on it. I believe that one of the strengths of our hobby is diversity. Several folks working independently on the common goal of reproducing music as faithful to the original event as possible.
I find nothing about criticizing others efforts to be "in service to the music" and can only assume that it originates from personal issues.
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Offline MylesAstor

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Re: some comments about the "competition"
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2009, 05:25:46 PM »
Yes I think this has been brewing with Doc for some time :)

Know that I got the same response from the aforementioned person when I bought my deck from him-not to mention Doc referred me to him. It's really too bad since they both do good work and there's no need to badmouth. Plenty of business to go around and this person should be thankful to Doc because the TP has caused a resurgence and a lot of talk about r2r decks. That has been obvious from the show reports where all the reviewers rave about the TP tapes.

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Offline TomR

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Re: some comments about the "competition"
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2009, 09:48:00 PM »
I have done a little business with this guy (I needed spacers for my RS1520 and he was able to get these to me pronto) and I have also talked to him on the phone, a few years ago before I purchased my used RS1520. He quoted me a price for a new unit (if you call it that - he managed to buy up most of the Technics spare parts inventory, so he builds them from unused parts) that was way more than I wanted to pay, and more than he had previously quoted on ebay - I do think there was some price inflation due to the status of the Tape Project. It would be interesting to hear what he quotes today.  He also made the somewhat (to me anyway) astonishing assertion that bass response is better at 7.5 ips than at 15 ips. Does anyone else believe that?

It is too bad that he seems to feel the need to run someone else down - he is an otherwise valuable resource and my one actual commercial experience was excellent. Some of the pictures of his machines took my breath away.
Thomas Ream

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Offline docb

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Re: some comments about the "competition"
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2009, 10:36:30 PM »
I'm not sure about a NOS spare parts inventory supplying all the bits for the machines he sells. My impression is that he has bought something over 80 used machines and rebuilds those, using primarily the original parts and supplementing with new old stock parts that he has acquired here and there. He strips every nut and bolt off, bead blasts the panels, has them painted by a pro car painter, adds custom panel overlays and custom silk screen that looks better than new. I guess he also sends stock PC boards out to be restuffed with upgraded components. When I first met him he was selling stock machines in excellent shape for $1500. Once he started getting into the huge amount of labor involved in stripping and refinishing the machines the prices increased to cover the labor he puts in. As I said, I think his work is beautiful. His pricing is whatever the market will bear, nothing wrong with that. I would spend the kind of dollars that he charges these days on a different machine for myself, but I have a different emphasis in what I am looking for in a tape machine than some do. Jeff's machines look beautiful in a nice listening environment, and if the aesthetics are of primary consideration I think his machines would be a great choice.

Regarding the playback heads, the stock heads were optimized for 7.5 ips playback. So the length of the bands is a little short for playing the lowest frequencies at 15 ips at the optimum. One of the main reasons we approached Greg Orton about designing and manufacturing the custom Flux Magnetics head is that it is optimized for 15 ips playback, the play speed of Tape Project albums. This is an example of why I would appreciate it if folks would contact me about why we do things the way we do. There is some method to our madness.

A quick note on spacers - they should be around .025" thick. I have seen some floating around that are much thicker. At one point I supplied some material that was the proper thickness and Jeff had a small run of them made by his laser cutter. My share of that run is long since gone.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline Red Grant

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Re: some comments about the "competition"
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 02:52:06 AM »
Doc, would you do tape path modification (roller bearing) for machines other than technic or Otari?
Hyok (Tony) Kim,  yes, this is my real name.

Btw.  How do you know it's my real name?  Just because I say so?

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Offline docb

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mods to other machines
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 09:24:04 AM »
We would have to charge for the time spent figuring out exactly how to modify the tape path of a different machine. When we decided to do the Otaris Shawn spent several days just figuring out what made sense to modify, finding parts, testing each individual part of the mod and seeing if it actually improved things, stayed in adjustment, etc. Just figuring out how to get the stock fixed guides under the headblock apart took about four different approaches before we came up with something that was guaranteed not to damage any parts.

If you have a tape machine with cylindrical fixed guides that are held on with a screw we may be able to fit our ball bearing mod to it. But we would have to see the machine and get the guides apart to figure that out.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project