Problems with sound-on-sound record

[ampexF44]

hi
i have ampex f44.

i want to make sound on sound records.
sticker on the case cover says: "To record sound on sound, first use mono 1 position,
then add 1>2 position, then add 2>1 position, etc"

well i did exactly as it says.

for first record take - i used mono 1 position - everything is ok

for second record take - i used 1>2 position - and...1 channel still has first record take
at the same time 2nd channel has second record take.

for 3rd record take i used 2>1 position and it simply erases 1st channel and my first record take...

so after this i only have record takes #2 and #3.... but #1 is erased...

why is it so?

am i doing something wrong or this function doesnt work on my F44?

if function doesnt work, what may be the reasons and how can i fix it?

thanks

[ampexF44]

and second question
my recorder has 2 modes:

1)Input mode - i can use recorder as preamplifier and cant hear sounds of tape.


2)Tape mode - i can hear sounds of tape.
so i can record myself only in this mode.
but when i push record button, and start recording for example guitar,
i can hear guitar with big delay. its impossible to play instrument hearing myself with such delay...
why is it so? is it how it is supposed to be?

[steveidosound]

Oh boy, not sure if I want to tackle all these questions!
First, that Ampex recorder (to me) is not all that transparent in it's operation. It sounds from your description like it is doing what it is supposed to do.
Also, "sound on sound", and "sound with sound" functions are not that...well... functional as recording techniques.
They were a means in the early days of home stereo recorders to give a person a chance to record multiple parts with the two channels available. The end result was a combination of parts as a mono recording on one of the the 2 available channels.

 The basic idea being that you could record a part on say the left channel, then listen to it and add a second part live with the mix of the two going to the right channel. Then add another part in the same way and bounce the mix of the three (previous mix of the 2 plus one more live) back to the left channel (thus erasing the original left channel part), and so on and so on until the whole thing got so poor from generation dubbing loss that you stopped. :) Actually, with a good recorder and tape (and the Ampex was a pretty good home unit) you could sometimes do this three or four generations with acceptable results. It is hard to do because the level of each part gets fixed relative to the others in the mix, so the balance is tricky. And the end result is always mono on one channel, because as you pointed out, there is a delay between the record and play head, so there is no way of ending up with both channels in sync with each other.

 It might help to think of the process as being essentially the same as taking two mono tape recorders and dubbing back and forth between them while mixing in a new live part with each dub. The process is also known as "ping-ponging" as you are bouncing tracks back and forth. You can do this to better effect with two stereo machines and a mixer by the way. Many of us did this before home project studio multi-track machines became affordable. There is still the problem of generational loss and controlling the mix balance, but at least you can save previous generations of parts by recording them one after the other on each tape and the end result can be a full stereo mix.

[steveidosound]

I have just located a piece of Ampex literature in my files for the Ampex 960, which I think has similar control functions to your Ampex.
It is entitled
"Ampex Stereo-Graph"
"basic control settings for the Ampex model 960 stereophonic recorder/reproducer".

It is one of these cardboard slide rule "computers" that they used to make (probably nobody even remembers what these are) to tell you complex functions by sliding the inner and outer pieces back and forth and lining up certain parameters in windows or with arrows and "reading out" the desired settings or functions in other little windows. At any rate this machine was so complicated to use that instead of written instructions in list form they had to make this device. It has a picture of the deck with all switches and controls numbered. There is an arrow you can slide back and forth along the top that describes various stereo and mono record and play functions and then the little windows show the appropriate settings of the switches (1-12) for each function, with an additional 13th window on the rear for notes regarding each function.
 So, under "Special Effects" it has a sub-heading for sound-on-sound, with 
A. record master track
B. master track  level set
C. record added track
D. playback

When you slide the arrow to the "record added track" function the little windows say things like "1-stereo, 2-single, 3-0, 4-8, 5-normal on meter, 6-0, 7-normal on meter, 8-0, 9-up 7 1/2 or down 3 3/4, 10-down, 11-in, 12- ->record"  for each of the knobs and switches and the note window on the back says  "Microphone plugged into _left_ (front jack). Mix of master track and sound-on-sound track regulated by  relative settings of controls #5 and #7"

So you can see why it was so simple most people gave up !

[ampexF44]

Steve first of all thank you very much for your time and willing to help.

i actually understand that this is a "ping pong" recording.
but problem is, if its ping pong everything should be recorded either left or right channel.

but in my case , when i do "add 1>2" step, it leaves 1 channel data on 1st channel and doesnt copy it to 2nd channel

so this 2nd record take goes to 2nd channel alone.

as result after "add 1>2" step i have 1 record take in the left channel and 2nd record take in the right channel. it shouldnt be so i think.


more than that when i do "add 2>1" step it erases 1st record take!!!

so after this i have onle 2nd and 3rd record takes...
1st one is erased

[ampexF44]

and second thing... even if it worked properly, i dont understand the sence
in sound on sound record if it has such big sound delay, i can not play instruments properly when i
hear myself with delay.

as i understood this sound delay is normal feature and supposed to be on my recorder?

[steveidosound]

Steve first of all thank you very much for your time and willing to help.

i actually understand that this is a "ping pong" recording.
but problem is, if its ping pong everything should be recorded either left or right channel.

but in my case , when i do "add 1>2" step, it leaves 1 channel data on 1st channel and doesnt copy it to 2nd channel

so this 2nd record take goes to 2nd channel alone.

as result after "add 1>2" step i have 1 record take in the left channel and 2nd record take in the right channel. it shouldnt be so i think.


more than that when i do "add 2>1" step it erases 1st record take!!!

so after this i have onle 2nd and 3rd record takes...
1st one is erased

As I said, the process is supposed to take the tape signal previously recorded plus your live signal and mix the two to a new recording on the other channel if you are doing everything correctly. You hear playback of the previous part and play/sing along.
If you have the switches set properly you should be able to both copy from one track to the other and blend in live signal from mic or guitar or whatever, while monitoring your previous recording at low level through a speaker or through one channel of headphones with your live sound in the other ear.
You only listen to one channel, (monitoring the previous recording)  at a time because the play/record process puts the new track out of sync with the previously recorded part.

Once you have done that new mono mix of parts one and two to the 2nd channel/track, your new mix can be copied back to the first channel in the same way adding a 3rd part, but you will erase the first part for this new recording. And so on back and forth. There are only 2 channels/tracks (L/R) available and you can't play and record the same track at the same time.

There is a process on some machines where the erase head is defeated and you can put on new material while leaving the old there, but this is even more difficult because you have no way of recording the new material while monitoring the old material, which becomes degraded by recording over it even though it is not erased. This is more analogous to a "double exposure" photograph.
I don't think this is what you are trying to do anyway, but sometimes the process names get confused.

In professional studio multi-track analog machines the sync problem is dealt with by having the same head play back the previously recorded track(s) for monitoring purposes while new material is recorded on another track with the same head, and there are 4, 8, 16, or 24 tracks to play with. Nothing need be copied track to track or mixed together till all the tracks are recorded then played back and mixed down. Much like modern digital recording.

[steveidosound]

"as result after "add 1>2" step i have 1 record take in the left channel and 2nd record take in the right channel. it shouldnt be so i think"

It should be take 1+2 in the right channel to use your terminology. Perhaps there is a left channel playback level knob you are forgetting to turn up if you are only getting live sound to the right channel.

[ampexF44]

thanks again..

you see problem starts when i can not copy first recorded take from channel 1 to channel 2.
it only records my second take to 2nd channel. and first take still sits on the first channel...

 but it supposed to copy 1st take to second channel
and record 2nd track to second channel simulteneously right?


why is that so?

[ampexF44]

It should be take 1+2 in the right channel to use your terminology. Perhaps there is a left channel playback level knob you are forgetting to turn up if you are only getting live sound to the right channel.
[/quote]

no, i checked both channels after 1>2 step (specially used switch to check) . first take was in left channel alone,  second take was in right channel also alone.

[steveidosound]

It should be take 1+2 in the right channel to use your terminology. Perhaps there is a left channel playback level knob you are forgetting to turn up if you are only getting live sound to the right channel.

no, i checked both channels after 1>2 step (specially used switch to check) . first take was in left channel alone,  second take was in right channel also alone.
[/quote]

First just try to copy the 1st take from the left to the right channel without adding in any live sound. On some machines the internal switching didn't do it all and you actually had to patch left line out to right line in for example. If you can make that work, you will be on your way. It will be out of sync because of the time delay beteen the play and record heads and it will not automatically erase the original take from the left channel. That would only happen when you go back the other way to add take (part) 3 to the 1+2 mix.

Any more and I will have to start charging you for tech support!  I don't think Ampex will reimburse me. :)

[steveidosound]

Please go back and re-read my first comment about this process being analogous to dubbing back and forth between 2 mono recorders.

[ampexF44]

steve , thanks for being kind and explaining !!! when i'll be a star, i will buy two 3M 24 track machines
and ask you to inspect them, for money of course! :)

well tomorrow i will try it all again, and post here!

Please go back and re-read my first comment about this process being analogous to dubbing back and forth between 2 mono recorders.

i read it attentively..

[ampexF44]

hi Steve

i tried it today again.
it seems to be not operating properly...it doesnt copy take 1 from left to the right channel.

recorder doesnt copy data from channel 1 to channel 2.
interesting thing is that it can copy data from channel 2 to channel 1 - no problem with this.


now i have to understand what is the reason and how to fix it.

i guess i will need schematics

[steveidosound]

Well, that would be that 1>2 and 2>1 switch. Perhaps it is just dirty contacts from sitting and not being used? Try again  to dub 1>2 and move the switch back and forth a bit as you do and see if you hear static or the signal trying to come through when you play back. You have already proved the machine records and plays on both channels. Now all you need to do is get it to direct the output of channel 1 to the input of channel 2 and be able to monitor that signal plus hear and mix in the live signal as you dub  over to the other channel.