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Author Topic: The R2R machine used by the Fine's for your collection  (Read 11384 times)


Offline MylesAstor

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Re: The R2R machine used by the Fine's for your collection
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 07:43:02 PM »
Here it is..

http://cgi.ebay.com/AMPEX-300-3-TRACK-1-2-MERCURY-LIVING-PRESENCE-complete_W0QQitemZ290399382386QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439d26eb72

I wonder how high $$$ it would go...

Thanks for the heads up Ki! As collector of Mercury LPs  for many years than I care to admit, it's fascinating to see the original machines.

Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables

Offline stellavox

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Another historical "tidbit"
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 07:27:43 AM »
I have the pair of ED Nunn's original microphone's, that he apparently used to record all of what became the stereo Audiophile LP releases.  Rich Brown picked them up somewhere and I'm going to try and "restore them" - one has low output.  They work on the FM RF principal, whereby the signal from the (B&K) condenser capsule modulates an RF carrier which is then demodulated to output audio.  Fascinating to see and investigate - along with Nunn's original design notes.

Love to see them "ride again"

Charles


Offline HDVS

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Re: Another historical "tidbit"
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 08:00:40 AM »
I have the pair of ED Nunn's original microphone's, that he apparently used to record all of what became the stereo Audiophile LP releases.  Rich Brown picked them up somewhere and I'm going to try and "restore them" - one has low output.  They work on the FM RF principal, whereby the signal from the (B&K) condenser capsule modulates an RF carrier which is then demodulated to output audio.  Fascinating to see and investigate - along with Nunn's original design notes.

Love to see them "ride again"

Charles



Hummm.... similar to the principle used by Sennheiser in their MKH Series?

Giorgio
Ampex ATR102 1/4" & 1/2" - Nagra T Audio (2 units, one set for NAB, the other to CCIR EQ) - Nagra DII - Stellavox TD9 1/4" & 16mm perfo - Telefunken M15 - Telefunken M5 mono - Digitec F500 - ABE AG31 - Studer D820X - Studer 961 - EMT 100 - Crookwood Paintpot MkI

Offline MylesAstor

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Re: Another historical "tidbit"
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 08:51:47 AM »
I have the pair of ED Nunn's original microphone's, that he apparently used to record all of what became the stereo Audiophile LP releases.  Rich Brown picked them up somewhere and I'm going to try and "restore them" - one has low output.  They work on the FM RF principal, whereby the signal from the (B&K) condenser capsule modulates an RF carrier which is then demodulated to output audio.  Fascinating to see and investigate - along with Nunn's original design notes.

Love to see them "ride again"

Charles



Charles--There's something very special about the Audiophile LPs (Like Yellow Dog Blues and Doc Evans at the Gaslight --a live recording) and I'm not sure we've ever really heard them correctly since Nunn seemed to use his own eq curve for his recordings. Don't know what it is but there is a magical transparency and resolution on the old Audiophile LPs even if they tend to be a little bass shy.

Have you heard the 7/12 Audiophile tapes? A couple were for sale on Ebay a year or so ago and went for around $200.
Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables

Offline newmedia

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Re: The R2R machine used by the Fine's for your collection
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 10:51:15 AM »
Charles:

Interesting about the RF-based mics -- might you have a schematic (even hand-drawn)?  The MKH series schemos are online (or I have them) if you'd like to compare.  I wonder what the patent story is on that design principle?

Bruel & Kjaer do not build RF-based mics.  The instrumentation capsules are (mostly) high-voltage polarization (i.e. 200V) followed by impedance-matching preamps.  There is an RF-based carrier system but based on the fact that I've never seen a complete one come up on eBay, that was a highly unusual option meant for long-distances.

A couple years ago I got a pair of RF-based mics and some 1/8" B&K capsules as well as some MKH 110/1 mics in trade for a Nagra IVS from a radio journalist in Marseilles.  These were hand-stamped "Melodium Made in France" on the case and actually use 200V capsules.  Melodium didn't make them (as were long out of business in 1976 when these components were dated) and, if French, they wouldn't be stamped in English.

I've walked around AES with them and tried to get B&K, G.R.A.S. and Aco-Pacific to help me to ID them and no one seems to have a clear idea where they came from.  An East German Cold War "scam" to get some hard currency?

Maybe you can help me to get them working!

Mark Stahlman
New York City
Stellavox: SM8, SU8, SP8, AMI48 / Nagra: IV-SJ, Digital / Otari: MTR-20, MTR-12 / Sound Devices: 744T, 788 / AMEK: BC II, TAC Bullet / Infinite Slope: 2.0, 1.8, 1.0, 0.8 / Bruel & Kjaer: 2133, 2144, Pulse

Offline HDVS

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Re: The R2R machine used by the Fine's for your collection
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 02:30:01 AM »
Mark, send me a picture of the "Melodium Made in France" mics. I can try to have a response from a person that possibly used them.
He also repaired the old MKH series and used to have all the spares for those mics.

Best,
Giorgio
Ampex ATR102 1/4" & 1/2" - Nagra T Audio (2 units, one set for NAB, the other to CCIR EQ) - Nagra DII - Stellavox TD9 1/4" & 16mm perfo - Telefunken M15 - Telefunken M5 mono - Digitec F500 - ABE AG31 - Studer D820X - Studer 961 - EMT 100 - Crookwood Paintpot MkI

Offline U47

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Nunn and his Microphones-
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 08:52:33 AM »
Hi Guys
Nunn used these mics on all his Stereo recordings from the 50s to the early 70s. They are almost line level output and are transformerless! I purchased them from an old friend and colleague of Nunn who wrote a nice remembrance of Nunn on the Nunn memorial website. The capsules are B&K instrumentation capsules, as Levinson used on his recordings. In the spare parts box were some other branded capsules without markings. Charlie is attempting to get them running properly again. They are both producing too much hiss, but otherwise sound fine.

Here is a link to some Nunn photos. He was quite an American original.

http://www.franastat.com/jb/jb_images/fe73.jpg

Rich Brown
Acoustic Arts
Portland, Oregon
Technics 1500 with King/Cello playback electronics, Stellavox SP-7, Technics 1500/Ampex MR70, Tascam BR-20 .

Offline U47

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Re: Nunn website correction-
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 08:53:45 AM »
Technics 1500 with King/Cello playback electronics, Stellavox SP-7, Technics 1500/Ampex MR70, Tascam BR-20 .

Offline newmedia

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Re: The R2R machine used by the Fine's for your collection
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 08:39:06 PM »
Rich:

Mark Levinson told me that he used standard 1/2" B&K 4163 capsules w/ 200V polarization and "modified' 2804 battery powered supplies.  So, no RF circuitry was involved in that setup.  These are omni-patterned, like the DPA mics many prefer, and lend themselves to widely spaced placement for recording ensembles.  Kostas Metaxas famously used 1/4" instrumentation capsules for many of his Stellamaster recordings, sacrificing S/N (i.e. self-noise) for the "speed" he got with 100kHz frequency response.

Of course microphone choice/placement is an art and there are many who do not enjoy the results from these omnis.  I happen to like the open sound of the 1" instrumentation capsules myself and have long wished that mic selections would be more carefully documented for commercial releases.

Here's what one of your links had to say --

Nunn tried many different microphones. In the early days, he used condenser microphones from Stephens Tru-Sonic, Neumanns from Germany, and others. He tried modifying commercially-built equipment. He was never entirely satisfied with the results and finally, around 1960, he built his own condenser microphones. They had small diaphragms to keep the system resonant frequency well above the range of audibility. The vibrating diaphragm frequency-modulated an RF signal, with the cables of a fixed length as part of an RF tuned circuit. After Nunn's death they were sold.

In addition to the DPA and various B&K (and other instrumentation mics) out there, Josephson makes the Series 6 microphone body that uses the 1/2" capsules and is 48V phantom powered.  It would be interesting to make some recordings with the various sorts of microphones using these capsules to see if there are any notable differences.

Mark Stahlman
New York City
Stellavox: SM8, SU8, SP8, AMI48 / Nagra: IV-SJ, Digital / Otari: MTR-20, MTR-12 / Sound Devices: 744T, 788 / AMEK: BC II, TAC Bullet / Infinite Slope: 2.0, 1.8, 1.0, 0.8 / Bruel & Kjaer: 2133, 2144, Pulse

Offline kipdent

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Re: Another historical "tidbit"
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 11:45:50 AM »
Charles--There's something very special about the Audiophile LPs (Like Yellow Dog Blues and Doc Evans at the Gaslight --a live recording) and I'm not sure we've ever really heard them correctly since Nunn seemed to use his own eq curve for his recordings. Don't know what it is but there is a magical transparency and resolution on the old Audiophile LPs even if they tend to be a little bass shy.

This thread prompted me to find the Doc Evans at the Gaslight Audiophile-label LP and wow--you're not kidding! I'm not sure how a non-RIAA curve can work so well in a modern system, but this album is all smiles. Bienville Blues is just wonderful.

This Forum is fantastic--not only do we share in an enthusiasm for the TP tapes for their incredible sonics, but knowledgeable people share in their discovery of gems like the Doc Evans LPs. Thank you!

Here's my gem of the day: If you don't want to feel like we're chasing our tails with our investments in high end audio sources and equipment, then DON'T go to too much live music... I just got back from a business trip to Austin, Texas, during which I made the effort to go to the Elephant Room on Congress Street to listen to live jazz. I am not exaggerating when I say that after one of the many sublime trumpet solos I heard, I caught myself with a tear in my eye. I'm not sure if it was because it was so beautiful or whether it was a subconscious realization that hearing unrestrained dynamics with pure, undistorted tone is probably just impossible with any reproduction system. I comfort this realization with the fact that I can put on a TP tape anytime and get close, versus the onerous (to me, at least) need to go somewhere like Texas to do better.  :-)

Kip
Kip Peterson
Vintage-centric system with Apogee Acoustics Scintilla ribbon loudspeakers, Micro Seiki RX-5000 turntable and other odd bits of tube and solid state gear. Now a proud owner of a Studer A80 RC Mk II tape machine!