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Author Topic: Creek Bank channel orientation question  (Read 13043 times)

Offline joeljoel1947

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Creek Bank channel orientation question
« on: March 18, 2010, 05:23:20 AM »
Well something is amiss here.  The left and right channels on this tape are the exact opposite of the cd release (Prestige PRCD-24055-2).  The piano is in the right channel on the tape, as Larry describes above in another thread.  Problem is, on the cd release its in the LEFT channel!  I triple checked everything on my end to be sure before posting this.

I guess I'm the only one who has compared the tape to another format on this one?  Something was done wrong here---either on the tape or the cd.  They are "vice-versa"!  Anyone have the LP on hand to settle the matters as a tie breaker?  ;)
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

Offline docb

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 06:41:29 PM »
I have the original Prestige issue. It was apparently only issued in mono, so I guess stereo either way is wrong if one wishes to split hairs. Of course one can sum the channels in their own system and hear what the original pressing sounds like. The later Fantasy reissue I do not have on hand to compare.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
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Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2010, 08:27:12 AM »
Quote
It was apparently only issued in mono, so I guess stereo either way is wrong if one wishes to split hairs.

I'm curious then---- if the stereo version is not the original (and splitting hairs "wrong") then why did you guys use it for the TP release?  Was the true original mono version not available to dupe?  I ordered the reissued Prestige Creek Bank on LP yesterday (P-24055) out of curiosity to see which way it orients the channels.
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

Offline docb

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 10:26:32 AM »
We used the original master tape. It is stereo. The first LP was released for sure in mono, I don't know for sure if it was released in stereo, but I haven't seen any stereo copies. Paul has spoken to folks who say that there was not a mono master, the mono LP version was a fold down of the stereo master. The later release in 1975 is apparently in stereo, but I don't have it in my collection to verify that. My comment about splitting hairs was meant to be somewhat lighthearted as this is discussion of decisions made in an artistic process, so in some sense there is no right or wrong. Even RVG himself is remastering stuff and changing it from the original. I do know that Paul's intent was to create a transfer that was as close as possible to the original master tape.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
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Offline joeljoel1947

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Yet another Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 12:31:47 PM »
Houston, we have a problem.

Today I received my Mose Alison "Creek Bank" LP, Prestige P-24055.  It lines up with the channel orientation of my Mose Alison cd, Prestige PRCD-24055-2.  Both the LP and CD are the stereo versions, and both place the piano in the hard left channel.  The tape project release is the exact opposite, and places the piano in the hard right channel (as also outlined by astrotoy in the Creek Bank thread).  Following where the piano is in this release makes it very easy to discern the channel orientation, although of course all the other subtleties in the mix are reversed as well.

The cd was remastered in 1993 at Fantasy Studios by Rudy Van Gelder.  The LP was remastered in 1975 at Fantasy Studios by David Turner.  So either both of those guys got it wrong both times with their own "Fantasy" material (or both some 20 years apart decided to reverse the channels on their own), or the Tape Project dub was done with the channels reversed somewhere in the chain.

Can you please look into and address this issue?  I'm hoping the response won't be, "reverse the outputs from your tape deck when you play Creek Bank". ;)  That might be ok for a $3 cd but for a $500 tape I would expect a better solution and/or explaination.
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

Offline astrotoy

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2010, 12:14:53 PM »
See my comment/analysis in the general TP tape discussion section.  It could be that the stereo record and CD were both taken from the same master or dub, so the channels would be the same on both, even though they were almost 20 years apart.  Larry
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Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2010, 01:18:23 PM »
Quote
It could be that the stereo record and CD were both taken from the same master or dub, so the channels would be the same on both, even though they were almost 20 years apart.  Larry

Hi Larry,
Unless the TP used a different master (and saying that there should only be 1 of them in pure theory, right?) then all 3 should line up with each other. The cd lines up with the LP, but the TP release is opposite both.  Since Doc said they used the original stereo tape for the TP dupe, its just not making sense on how their release is different then the other two.  Furthermore, I guess I'm perplexed that someone at the TP would not have compared their "master" of Creek Bank or even the duplicates of that master that we end up with back to the stereo LP version at some point.  Wouldn't they want to know if its sound quality was any better or worse then the stereo LP?  I guess I'm put together differently as my sheer curiosity of how each format stacks up to one another using the same release makes this the 1st thing I do if I do not have the other formats already--get the lp of the TP release, the cd of the TP release, and the sacd/hrx if available and start comparing away.  I guess I'm one of the few doing this which is interesting in itself.  For example, my post in the Naylor forum asking whether or not anyone has compared TP-001 to the cd version has been sitting there for almost 2 years now, with not a single reply!
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

Offline ironbut

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2010, 03:37:11 PM »
Hey Joel,
Something you may not have considered is that after recording the master tape, the artist, the producer or even the record company may have insisted that the channels be reversed. Or it could be that Allison/van Gelder agreed to record it with the piano in the right but the record company wanted it the other way around. There are a lot of possibilities here.  Also, I doubt that Paul would've gone through the trouble of rewiring the machines when making the running masters. So, I'm sure that however it is on the master tape is how our copies are configured.
So, would one be right and the other wrong? Personally, I don't think so. After all, switching the channels is nothing compared to the "wrong speed" that Kind of Blue was released as. God knows how many subsequent releases were actually made before a "speed corrected" version appeared from Classic Records.
I think that once the lp was released with the channels reversed from the master, the subsequent releases followed suit.
Trying to figure out the motivations of previous releases could be researched but it would take a good bit of time I'd guess. And even if you could get an answer from someone who was there, would their recollection of what happened so many years ago be accurate?

I guess the bottom line is,..
Do I trust that my tape is configured the same as the master?
Yes
Do I think that the channels are reversed from other stereo releases?
Sounds like it
How do I want my tape configured?
The same way the master tape is
steve koto
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Offline astrotoy

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2010, 03:54:23 PM »
Hi Joel, My best guess is that the LP reissue and CD were taken from the same tape which could have been a dub with the channels reversed. My comment in the other thread speaks to that - since the voice is in the wrong place (middle) if the piano was really on the left side (voice would be hard left). As to comparing with the CD or other sources, since I collect classical LP's, I have originals of all the classical releases that are in the first two series (all but Exotic Dances - where I have the HRx release), and have compared them to the TP releases.  Since I don't collect jazz or pop to any great extent, I won't be buying CD's etc. for comparison purposes.  I think the only one I have that isn't a classical is "Waltz for Debby" in the Acoustic Sounds LP reissue and their SACD (which I got with a bunch of used SACD's for about $3 each).  Frankly, I hadn't heard of most of the jazz and rock/pop artists (like Mose Allison, David Alvin, Robert Cray, etc.) However, the range of music put out by TP has expanded my musical horizons. I'll continue to do comparisons with my vinyl collection for the next two Reference Recordings - Church WIndows and Nojima Plays Liszt, which I have had in my vinyl collection for 20+ years. 


 


Hi Larry,
Unless the TP used a different master (and saying that there should only be 1 of them in pure theory, right?) then all 3 should line up with each other. The cd lines up with the LP, but the TP release is opposite both.  Since Doc said they used the original stereo tape for the TP dupe, its just not making sense on how their release is different then the other two.  Furthermore, I guess I'm perplexed that someone at the TP would not have compared their "master" of Creek Bank or even the duplicates of that master that we end up with back to the stereo LP version at some point.  Wouldn't they want to know if its sound quality was any better or worse then the stereo LP?  I guess I'm put together differently as my sheer curiosity of how each format stacks up to one another using the same release makes this the 1st thing I do if I do not have the other formats already--get the lp of the TP release, the cd of the TP release, and the sacd/hrx if available and start comparing away.  I guess I'm one of the few doing this which is interesting in itself.  For example, my post in the Naylor forum asking whether or not anyone has compared TP-001 to the cd version has been sitting there for almost 2 years now, with not a single reply!

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mep

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 06:31:33 PM »
Ironbut-Somehow I seriously doubt that the record companies would insist on reversing the channels.  Why would they give a damn which channel the piano came out of?  They wouldn't.  Joel's questions need to be taken seriously and answered thoughtfully by the only people who can answer this and that is the TP principals.  Don't be so quick to rule out a TP mistake in the making of this tape Ironbut.  I saw a response by Doc that says they are looking into it and everyone should wait for the offical response as to what happened-and me thinks something did happen.

Mark

Offline blaupunk

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2010, 07:41:23 PM »
There seems to be a parallel universe going on for this release please refer to TP Tapes General topic thread.
Can these threads be combined under the specific release topic?

I cannot speak to the differences of where the piano is/should be based upon the various LP/CD/TP issues.

All I know is that unless we are dealing with contemporary releases, we are at the mercy of archival facilities which may or may not be all that accurate.
This is the reality of the reissue business.
 
MEP the TP is not representing that these are the master tapes.  They are representing that it has been represented to them that these are the master tapes by the owners of the master tapes.

What I do not believe I have read is regardless of which channel the piano appears in does the TP release sound more "real" than the LP/CD release?
My listening chair is an Ekorness platform recliner which rotates 360 degrees.
I can listen to the music frontwards, or backwards which functionally reverses the channels.

Why don't we all take a breath, remember that the TP is about the enjoyment of music and not life and death matters and wait for an answer which ultimately must come from the owners of the master tape, not the owners of the TP.





 
Charles Vonderheid

Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2010, 05:27:55 AM »
Quote
There seems to be a parallel universe going on for this release please refer to TP Tapes General topic thread.
Can these threads be combined under the specific release topic?


I created the parallel universe because nobody at the TP was acknowledging the issue in this thread.  So I thought I would try the general section too.  Finally, after a months wait almost to the day, we have a response that they are looking into it.

Quote
wait for an answer which ultimately must come from the owners of the master tape, not the owners of the TP.

How are you so sure? 
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

mep

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2010, 09:50:16 AM »
Blaupunk-you are wrong.  The TP are representing the tapes they sell as coming from the original master tapes.  I don't remember reading any disclaimers from the TP that states otherwise.  That is the whole premise the TP was founded on-using the original master tapes to make their running master tapes on 1" 2 track tape to then be duped on the 1/4" tape you buy.  Me thinks that maybe your chair has swiveled around in circles one too many times.

From the TP website:

How are the tapes made?
A: Our duplication process begins with the actual analog master tape. From that we make analog running masters on one inch two-track format. The one inch tape format transfer results in a extremely low loss of information, which we consider more like 1/2 generation than one full generation. These running masters are copied in real time to a bank of finely tweaked Ampex ATR-100 decks, yielding a "1-1/2 generation" copy. You just aren't going to get any closer to the original master, short of buying a record label or two.

Offline blaupunk

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2010, 07:12:00 PM »
Mep/Joel,
I would ask that you please read my post a bit more carefully.  Please allow me to recap.

To MEP,
Unless the owners of the TP were the original recording/mastering engineers with the ownership rights to the master tape which they have maintained in their personal possessions for all these years; how do you think they get access to these master tapes?

They approach the owner of the master tapes and make a deal for the recording rights there to.
What if the owner of the master tapes is incorrect?  Is that the TP's fault?
What if the data on the box says it is a master tape, and it turns out not to be so, or visa versa.  Is that the TP's fault?
The point is that the TP or any other would be reissuer of any given title is at the mercy of the folks who own the master tape in the first place.
It seems to me that there is a lot room for error in this reissue business.

To question the TP because their reissue is in conflict with two other previous reissues is logical.
To acknowledge (so that even I would get the message) that the search for the answer to the question is ongoing would be the preferable play.
I suspect that these matters can be quite complicated and may take a lot of research when and if a question of source authenticity arises.  But in the end since TP was not there at the time TP will always have to rely upon the information, cataloging, knowledge and honesty of the master tape owners.
I cannot and will not fault the TP for that or any resulting mistakes that result from the misinformation of others.
That is the chance I took when I signed up.
Does the TP really need to issue a disclaimer for what seems to me to be the obvious vagaries of the master tape procurement process?  Perhaps so.
I do expect the TP to do their due diligence.  Each TP owner strikes me as sincere, knowledgeable, well positioned in the recording business and honest.  That is good enough for me.
I am not sure this advances the topic.
However even with the best of intentions and with the assurance that you have the master tape, there are obviously room for doubt with any release.
In conclusion, it seems to me that the tone of the discord is that majority rules and that by using that criteria the TP issue is more suspect to be in error than other two reissues. I am not ready to throw in with that logic quite yet.
And as for my chair, it may have indeed swiveled a few too many times, but my head is still screwed on tight and I suggest temperance and caution
in this discussion.
A little humor and perspective wouldn't hurt either.
To Joel,
I am so sure because in the end the TP is not the owner of the master tape.  Unless there is independent corroborating sources of information from persons with first hand knowledge the TP will always have to rely upon the resources and knowledge of the owner of the master tape.
Therefor logically the answer must come from the master tape owner.
That is unless you are inferring that there was an error in the dubbing of the master tape by the TP.
I do not have the knowledge or expertise to tilt at that windmill.
 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 08:12:32 PM by blaupunk »
Charles Vonderheid

mep

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Re: Creek Bank channel orientation question
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2010, 10:11:44 AM »
Blaupunk-I find your second response to be rather convoluted.  I read your first post carefully and upon further reading, I see it is written with the logic of a lawyer.  In the case of Creek Bank, I don?t think that Joel is questioning whether or not the TP had the master tape at their disposal.  I do believe that he is inferring that somewhere in their reproduction chain, the channels were reversed.  It shouldn?t be hard or take long to figure out what happened.  Either every other release is wrong and the TP got it right or the opposite is true.

As for all of your legal speak about the TP not representing the  tapes as master tapes because they don?t own them, you are right in that aspect. The TP is not in the business of licensing master tapes for commercial use.  Rather, the TP has a business model of acquiring the rights to use master tapes to make a limited number of copies for sale to their subscribers.  These tapes that are sold to the subscribers are being represented as having been made from the master tape by the TP and let their be no confusion about that.  The only exception to that is the Linda R. tape which the TP figured out that they didn?t have the master tape, but made the decision to use it anyway and notified the subscribers of the problem as the tapes were shipping.

In summary, I think you have taken a very simple issue and clouded it with lawyer logic.

Mark