TP-028, Nat Adderley's Work Song is now available

Author Topic: Fer reel????  (Read 12706 times)

mep

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Re: Fer reel????
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2010, 09:34:21 AM »
MikeL-Pivoted arms only have perfect geometry at the two null points.  But, how does that fact relate to phase?  With the tiny error that 10" and longer arms have across the record, you are saying that they are not in phase except for the two null points?  I have never heard that before and I have been to 3 county fairs and 2 goat breedings.  Do you really mean phase?

Mark

Offline mikel

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Re: Fer reel????
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2010, 09:57:00 AM »
MikeL-Pivoted arms only have perfect geometry at the two null points.  But, how does that fact relate to phase?  With the tiny error that 10" and longer arms have across the record, you are saying that they are not in phase except for the two null points?  I have never heard that before and I have been to 3 county fairs and 2 goat breedings.  Do you really mean phase?

Mark

the stylus is either perfectly aligned to the groove or it's not. phase is simply the relationship of one sound in time to another. when the stylus is aligned perfectly then the phase can be absolutely spot on. when it's not in alignment there will be a degree of mis-alignment. a pivoted arm only has the potential for spot on alignment at two points.

our ears are extremely sensitive to tiny changes in phase, much more than tiny changes in gain. that's because phase determines where things are in space. close your eyes and you can easily track the direction of sounds....and how far away they might seem. how real they sound. it's why digital seems flat. correct phase gets thrown out with all the math. DSD/SACD does space better than PCM because there is much less math involved.

there is a reason that linear trackers do space better than pivoted arms. it's because of perfect (potentially) time alignment.

at RMAF Fremer did a workshop on cartridge setup. he discussed a computer program developed by Fiekert which allows for phase alignment while adjusting azimith. he showed us how getting phase as close as possible was more important than balancing channel output. it's the phase alignment that 'snaps in' when everything is right. i'll caution that Fremer did not connect the dots here, i did.

i have three tt's; one with a linear tracker and 2 with pivoted arms. it's easy to hear what i'm talking about.

can a pivoted arm sound great? sure. can it do phase very very well? sure. can it do it as good as a linear tracker? no.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 10:20:41 AM by mikel »
Mike Lavigne

mep

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Re: Fer reel????
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2010, 10:36:20 AM »
MikeL- I think you are confusing cartridge overhang with cartridge zenith.  Incorrect zenith can affect phase, and in the case of linear tracking arms, if zenith is off, it is off for the entire record and it will affect phase.  As I think you know, I own a linear tracking arm and I started the blog on Audiogon as to why I thought linear tracking arms are superior to pivoted arms.  I have since gone on a new direction that I am getting close to reporting on the results so far.

Mark

Offline mikel

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Re: Fer reel????
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2010, 11:32:51 AM »
MikeL- I think you are confusing cartridge overhang with cartridge zenith.  Incorrect zenith can affect phase, and in the case of linear tracking arms, if zenith is off, it is off for the entire record and it will affect phase.  As I think you know, I own a linear tracking arm and I started the blog on Audiogon as to why I thought linear tracking arms are superior to pivoted arms.  I have since gone on a new direction that I am getting close to reporting on the results so far.

Mark

in a pivoted arm, the problem is that correct overhang results in the minimum average deviation. at every point other than two, this deviation will result in a small mis-alignment of the signal for left and right. phase deviation happens in degrees. a perfectly aligned cartridge in a pivoted arm will have minimal phase mis-alignment....but it will still have some.

phase is invoved in every difference from one channel to another; in whatever plane you choose. either the timing is perfectly in phase or it's not.

the cutter head is cutting a groove at one alignment, the pivoted arm is reading the groove at another (except 2 points). just because the cartridge is aligned in side to side (azimuth) and in rotation (zenith) it's still not aligned perfectly front to back.

yes; zenith and azimuth need to be correct to minimzie this deviation; but a pivoted arm cannot possibly eliminate it.

a linear tracker still needs to be properly aligned or as you say, it's wrong everywhere.

Mike Lavigne

Offline c1ferrari

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Re: Fer reel????
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2010, 11:15:55 PM »
I had bought a recorder from a Saftway parking lot... 

Ki...say it isn't so!

-Sam
Sam Lucero
SPQCV
:-)

Offline c1ferrari

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Re: Fer reel????
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2010, 11:21:59 PM »
I have been to 3 county fairs and 2 goat breedings. 
Mark

Mark, that reminds me of a scene from Dr. Strangelove - lol :-)

-Sam
Sam Lucero
SPQCV
:-)

Offline MylesAstor

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Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables

Offline MylesAstor

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Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables