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Author Topic: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!  (Read 6596 times)

Offline DJ Darkhorse

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Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« on: April 30, 2010, 02:04:57 PM »
So in brief, I took a chance on ebay and bid on an Otari, the pics were a tad blurry, but it all looked good. all it said was In good working order. But I got it for $275, so figured it was worth it. Though guy charged $150 to ship it, Damn! So it arrived, double boxed, foam wrapped and bubble wrapped. Got it out left reel wont turn even by hand.

look like the idiots shipped it spindles down, so that even though it was well wrapped, it traveled across country face down. WTF

SO. if I take the Spindle cover (sorry if not right name) plate off, the motor runs, I see alan key bolts holding the spindle over hub, it looks like that has been pushed down the spindle causing the spindle cover to jam against the faceplate.

I'm guessing the spindle hasn't been pushed into the motor, as it seems to be running in play along with the right one.
Can I pull the hub back along the spindle by undoing the alan key bolts and re-adjusting, and is this a precision task?
And how much play should be in the spindles, when you pull and push on them a little?

So I haven't even figured it out yet if it plays or records?

I have an electronics, mechanical background but no experience with reel2reel.

Hope I have outlined the problem, if not can upload some pics to make it easier.

Thanks
DH


Offline ironbut

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 03:06:58 PM »
Bummer about the shipping DH,

I'm not understanding what you mean so I'll try and outline the parts.
The part of the reel motors that the reels sit on are the "reel tables".
In the center of each reel table are the "hold downs". These are either a screw down or spring loaded to hold a plastic reel.
To use a large diameter reel, there's an adapter called an "NAB adapter". These are usually needed to use a 10.5" aluminum reel.

Which parts are you referring to in your post?
BTW You should refer to the manuals you so kindly provided for parts names.
steve koto
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Offline DJ Darkhorse

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2010, 03:37:12 PM »
Soz for my description of parts.
So from the parts list.
unless your looking at the otari parts schematics this will be alien speak.

from Otari parts list - Section 4 Reel Assembly

Reel Table Assembly (Part  no. 2) is jammed against the Projector, Reel (part no.4). I think it was shipped spindles down. So that the part Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) has pushed down the shaft that comes out from the motor(part No.6). If I remove the Reel Table Assembly (Part  no. 2) and press play both motors turn ok, so the motor works.

So it seems that if I undo the Alan Key bolts holding the part Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) to the Motor shaft i can pull it out along the shaft again so it's not jammed with the Reel Table Assembly (Part  no. 2) back on .

OK so the left motor feels tight and new actually, it spins very quiet, the right one spins noisy and has a lot of play in the shaft, both clockwise/counter and pulling the shaft out and in, the left is tight very little play, what is an acceptable amount of play in the motors for ok playback and record.

Thanks for any advice, I'm still within my rights to ship this back if I want,
hope the explanation is better

Capstan motor seems sound, strong can't stop with fingers no play.

If I have to replace the right motor, doesn't seem that hard a job.

To keep or to wash hands, damn.

DH

Offline Ki Choi

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2010, 04:07:23 PM »
One of the most likely issues in shipping any heavy R2R machines I had experienced is the damage to the tape hold down spindles.  With small amount of force applied - especially making the cross country trip faced down - one or both of your spindles will not be true.  Some R2R machines such as Sony APR series recorders have the reel spindle as an integrated part of the spooling motor - having to replace the entire spooling motor assemblies if it is bent.

I advise folks who would ship Studers to always remove the spring loaded spindles off the machine before packing.

It will be my vote to send the Otari back to the seller and get a full refund - let the seller fight it out with insurance claim...  there will be other good Otaris for sale for certain.

Good luck,
Ki
Ki Choi

Offline DJ Darkhorse

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2010, 04:29:20 PM »
One of the most likely issues in shipping any heavy R2R machines I had experienced is the damage to the tape hold down spindles.  With small amount of force applied - especially making the cross country trip faced down - one or both of your spindles will not be true.  Some R2R machines such as Sony APR series recorders have the reel spindle as an integrated part of the spooling motor - having to replace the entire spooling motor assemblies if it is bent.

I advise folks who would ship Studers to always remove the spring loaded spindles off the machine before packing.

It will be my vote to send the Otari back to the seller and get a full refund - let the seller fight it out with insurance claim...  there will be other good Otaris for sale for certain.

Good luck,
Ki

Spot on Ki,
The left one is bent, but made of parts, so it's the machined bolt down the middle that is bent, possible to straighten but might mess up the threads, but most likely an easy to replace part on the Otari.

DH

Offline ironbut

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2010, 04:39:02 PM »
You should be able to adjust the reel table height. That's a pretty normal adjustment. A little play up and down is also normal since with no play, the motor is too tight and won't turn. This play is actually internal since most of the time, the motor is being held together by the magnets of the motor.
The things you need to worry about is if the shaft or the chassis where the motor bolts down or the mounting bracket are bent. Those are fatal. And actually, since you still have the option of returning the machine, anything thats bent or stripped would warrant a return.
 I'm guessing that it's the right motor that had the parts jammed together? If the noise that you're hearing sounds like metal on metal, it could be that something is bent. When it turns, do you see any more wobble than the other side? If so, that's also a very bad sign. Although it's unlikely that the motor is internally bent or broken, it could be that the bearings were damaged.
If the noise doesn't sound like metal, maybe a description of it could help.

Anyway, try and locate the source of the noise first. It could be increasing the damage so you want to resolve that as soon as you can.
One rather benign source of your noise could be a badly adjusted brake band (#10). But, it could also be a bent shaft that's making that brake scrap.
Second, (or combined with "first") look for any wobble in the reel tables (front and back). A teeny tiny bit is OK but realize that the reel table adjustments are usually a milimeter up or down since you're adjusting the space between the tape and the two flanges of the reel (so neither scrapes,.. this scraping is called flanging by the way).

Give those a try.

Oops, just read Ki's and your reply.  I'm with Ki. Send it back for a refund. You'll never get the shaft straight again and if that's bent, other parts could easily be out of whack. You can figure that the shaft took the full weight of the machine at least once.

steve koto
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Offline DJ Darkhorse

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2010, 05:01:45 PM »
You should be able to adjust the reel table height. That's a pretty normal adjustment. A little play up and down is also normal since with no play, the motor is too tight and won't turn. This play is actually internal since most of the time, the motor is being held together by the magnets of the motor.
The things you need to worry about is if the shaft or the chassis where the motor bolts down or the mounting bracket are bent. Those are fatal. And actually, since you still have the option of returning the machine, anything thats bent or stripped would warrant a return.
 I'm guessing that it's the right motor that had the parts jammed together? If the noise that you're hearing sounds like metal on metal, it could be that something is bent. When it turns, do you see any more wobble than the other side? If so, that's also a very bad sign. Although it's unlikely that the motor is internally bent or broken, it could be that the bearings were damaged.
If the noise doesn't sound like metal, maybe a description of it could help.

Anyway, try and locate the source of the noise first. It could be increasing the damage so you want to resolve that as soon as you can.
One rather benign source of your noise could be a badly adjusted brake band (#10). But, it could also be a bent shaft that's making that brake scrap.
Second, (or combined with "first") look for any wobble in the reel tables (front and back). A teeny tiny bit is OK but realize that the reel table adjustments are usually a milimeter up or down since you're adjusting the space between the tape and the two flanges of the reel (so neither scrapes,.. this scraping is called flanging by the way).

Give those a try.

Oops, just read Ki's and your reply.  I'm with Ki. Send it back for a refund. You'll never get the shaft straight again and if that's bent, other parts could easily be out of whack. You can figure that the shaft took the full weight of the machine at least once.



Thanks IB,
With both Reel Table Assembly (Part  no. 2) off, the motors run quiet, It seems the bolt took most of it and bent, and the Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) has pushed down the motor shaft, as the gap between Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) and the motor housing is bigger on the right than it is on the left (there are two bolts holding the Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) onto the shaft. Nothing back there seems bent  i.e brackets etc, brakes look good. I think its really pulling the Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) back up the shaft a bit for clearance and finding a new bolt for the tape hold down spindles?

On looking at the Otari back here, its made well,  and seems like it can take some weight, but maybe not dropping. All seems spinning straight, but no reels on it yet.

anyhoo thanks for the advice
I have to speak to him, see what he wants to do,
shipping it back is gonna be a pain.
Maybe I can do a deal,

as  a primo one looks around 800 - 1000 + shipping

DH

Offline DJ Darkhorse

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 11:56:55 AM »
For anyone thinking of shipping a Reel 2 Reel, or getting one shipped to them for that matter.

Make sure the sender reads this first to save on problemos...

Outlines how to pack and ship a Reel 2 Reel Deck.

http://www.reelprosoundguys.com/packing.html

Offline Tim

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 02:10:14 PM »
Those are very poor instructions for packing.  Those cardboard tubes are on top of the reel-table, which means any impact to the box will be applied directly to the reel-tables and reel motor.  This will at least jam the reel-table into the front panel and, at worst, damage the reel motor.  Many other parts, such as those volume pots at the bottom of the decks can easily be damaged from impact. Nothing should touch the front (or back) panel!  All protruding items (reel tables, head-blocks, tension-rollers, knobs) are quite delicate and should be free and clear of any and all packing material.
 
If you look at the original packing for any RTR deck, you will find a common method:  They support the deck only by the sides or corners.  Again, nothing touches the top or rear panel

One can duplicate the original packing by removing the side panels and bolting on boards that extend 4" or so beyond the front and back panels.  That way, when the box takes a hit during shipping, then the chassis will take 100% of the impact and there will be zero stress on any protruding front/rear panel parts.  Another method is to buy 4 large corner-blocks of dense foam at a packing store. They need to be large enough so that nothing on the front panel protrudes beyond the blocks.

Your Otari arrived with damaged reel-tables and that would not have happened if they were free and clear of any packing material .  The unit was damaged due to poor packing by the seller.

If the packing does not in theory duplicate the original packing, then the odds are very good for shipping damage.

BTW, you mentioned that your deck was packed with the reels facing down.  This was not the cause of the damage, because during UPS shipping, the box does not adhere to any specific orientation.  There is no up or down.  The tables were damaged because they were not free and clear of all packing material. 

« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 02:38:31 PM by Tim »
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Offline DJ Darkhorse

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 06:58:25 PM »
Those are very poor instructions for packing.  Those cardboard tubes are on top of the reel-table, which means any impact to the box will be applied directly to the reel-tables and reel motor.  This will at least jam the reel-table into the front panel and, at worst, damage the reel motor.  Many other parts, such as those volume pots at the bottom of the decks can easily be damaged from impact. Nothing should touch the front (or back) panel!  All protruding items (reel tables, head-blocks, tension-rollers, knobs) are quite delicate and should be free and clear of any and all packing material.
 
If you look at the original packing for any RTR deck, you will find a common method:  They support the deck only by the sides or corners.  Again, nothing touches the top or rear panel

One can duplicate the original packing by removing the side panels and bolting on boards that extend 4" or so beyond the front and back panels.  That way, when the box takes a hit during shipping, then the chassis will take 100% of the impact and there will be zero stress on any protruding front/rear panel parts.  Another method is to buy 4 large corner-blocks of dense foam at a packing store. They need to be large enough so that nothing on the front panel protrudes beyond the blocks.

Your Otari arrived with damaged reel-tables and that would not have happened if they were free and clear of any packing material .  The unit was damaged due to poor packing by the seller.

If the packing does not in theory duplicate the original packing, then the odds are very good for shipping damage.

BTW, you mentioned that your deck was packed with the reels facing down.  This was not the cause of the damage, because during UPS shipping, the box does not adhere to any specific orientation.  There is no up or down.  The tables were damaged because they were not free and clear of all packing material. 



Hi Tim,
I agree with your way, as it wouldn't make any difference which way up it arrived.
but I can't see UPS taking that much care packing it, and the boards would have to be specially made, and it was UPS that packed the Otari. I'm Afraid the guy was not an experienced R2R seller.

I can see how your way would offer best protection, so sellers listen to Tim, if you don't want to deal with claims of DOA decks. I also think the cardboard sleeves would work if they are of a bigger diameter than the reel tables and rest on the face plate, if you could not manufacture the boards. The way mine came packed seems to be the norm, and why you can't ship something that way with This Way Up! stamped on it, is beyond me. If It had had those three words on it, it would have arrived OK. And that advice I did send to the seller before he shipped it.

Oh well, dealing with UPS insurance now. Lovely.

DH

« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 07:02:01 PM by DJ Darkhorse »

Offline Tim

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 07:58:02 PM »
I'm with Ki Choi.....I would get a full refund from the seller and let him deal with the hassle of an insurance claim and the hassle of getting it repaired.  It (insurance) may not even apply because the damage was due to improper packing and not mis-handling by the carrier.  Also a "This End Up" sticker would not have helped at all.  That's a joke to UPS.   The only way to keep a unit in one orientation is to strap it to a pallet and have it freight shipped. Even that is not a 100% guarantee it stays upright.

Bolting boards to the side of the unit would be easy to do.  Actually, if a deck has rack-panels, you could attach 2x4s to the rails with wood screws.  Then cut a piece of plywood the size of the front panel and screw that down onto the 2x4s.  The entire front panel would be 100% protected. You could throw the shipping box down a flight of stairs and nothing on the front panel would be damaged.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 08:09:48 PM by Tim »
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Offline bobschneider

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2010, 08:43:34 PM »
Soz for my description of parts.
So from the parts list.
unless your looking at the otari parts schematics this will be alien speak.

from Otari parts list - Section 4 Reel Assembly

Reel Table Assembly (Part  no. 2) is jammed against the Projector, Reel (part no.4). I think it was shipped spindles down. So that the part Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) has pushed down the shaft that comes out from the motor(part No.6). If I remove the Reel Table Assembly (Part  no. 2) and press play both motors turn ok, so the motor works.

So it seems that if I undo the Alan Key bolts holding the part Holder, Reel Table (part no.3) to the Motor shaft i can pull it out along the shaft again so it's not jammed with the Reel Table Assembly (Part  no. 2) back on .

OK so the left motor feels tight and new actually, it spins very quiet, the right one spins noisy and has a lot of play in the shaft, both clockwise/counter and pulling the shaft out and in, the left is tight very little play, what is an acceptable amount of play in the motors for ok playback and record.


DH

The way you describe the adjustment is exactly how you're supposed to adjust the reel table height.  It sounds like your left motor is fine, and you just need to adjust the reel table and get a new spindle.  I would get a replacement for the right motor, though. 

Parts for these come up all the time on eBay, including some NOS parts from time to time.  If I were in your position, I'd just get a price adjustment from the seller, and get either parts or maybe a parts deck off eBay.
Bob Schneider

Offline DJ Darkhorse

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 11:49:53 AM »
Just to update this.
I got a refund from the packing place, so have all but $20 dollars back, and I keep the unit, which is only good for parts. So I got a very clean Otari MX 55 T-M.

Offline ironbut

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Re: Otari 5050 Biii-2 arrived Thanks UPS oh dear!
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 01:06:20 PM »
Good deal!
I've had to deal with some of the e-tailer's that handle the sales of items for other folks and my experience with them has always been positive.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
 HE Audio Jades