TP-028, Nat Adderley's Work Song is now available

Author Topic: Disscusions  (Read 13725 times)

Offline jcmusic

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Disscusions
« on: April 27, 2008, 07:52:45 AM »
It seems to me that there is not enough disscusions on this site, of course this is just my opinion. I wish we had more people talking to each other here, exchanging tips habits ideas and what not. Maybe it is just me, but I look forward to reading you guys post problem is there just aren't any on a daily basis. Hopefully we can pickup the pace a little so guys like me can learn a little more, thanks.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.

Offline cam3xl

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2008, 10:57:11 AM »
Well, I think that part of the issue is that we just don't have quite as many members as some other audio boards where there is constant conversation.  less than 100 or so registered (correct me if I'm wrong Doc).  Fewer folks + specific topic (TP) = meaningful, but fewer threads.  We tend to be really focused here and many of the names here I recognized from other boards where we tend to do some of our broader geekin' out.  I have the same problem over at the Planar asylum.  If we didn't argue about the merits of one mod in particular, you could go for days without a new post.

With all that being said, if you start an interesting thread, you will get answers.  Because we are a small group, I think everyone kinda checks on all new messages.  Keep the faith.

Bhek
Whatever sounds good,  Do that!

Peace,
Bhek

Pro-Ject Xpression 1, Denon DL-160 MC cart., Sony DVP-555ES SACD, Maple Tree Audio Ultra 4+ Pre, Audio Research D100 power, Onkyo Tuner, Otari 5050 IIB 2speed 2/4 track R2R.  Mirage OM-9.

Offline jcmusic

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2008, 03:18:06 PM »
Well that's what I am or was trying to do, stir the pot a little if you would. I agree with you and do understand as I am a member of a few other forums too. Thanks for your insight I just look forward to reading post here about TP tapes and other members gear.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.

Offline ironbut

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2008, 04:38:23 PM »
The posts seem to come in waves around here. The time that folks can spend with their machines generally leads to the questions that really take off. And, just like in other forums, things like Spring break, holidays and tax time put a limit on spare time and money.
I'd like to think that some of the questions that were asked and answered in the past are being found with careful use of the search feature. And I seem to be receiving more emails with specific questions from the members here ( I welcome others to do so, just remember that I'm just another member here so specific inquiries regarding the TP should be addressed to Doc, Paul, Michael or Eileen).
steve koto
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Offline jgbeam

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2008, 07:13:29 PM »
Good point, Jay.  I'm one of the lurkers who is just sitting back waiting for you other guys to keep things interesting.  Well, now that my headblock is at JRF Magnetics for relapping and my machine is on a UPS truck bound for the west coast and docB's magic, I guess I should throw in my 2 cents from time to time. 

What pushed into the upgrade path was the Dave Alvin tape.  No way was I going to spend $1200 for six tapes of music that I wasn't nuts about (except for the Oistrakh) after listening to the respective CD's, but one of the members got a few others to chip in on a group subscription and I found $400 an easier nut to swallow.  So I went for the Alvin and the Oistrakh.  Now, my machine is a Technics 1500 that I got on ebay for $300 - the front panel has some cosmetic damage but it works just fine.  So I cued up the CD and started the Alvin tape with volume down.  When the meters started to jump, I began listening to the CD for a couple of minutes then switched the output to the tape.  BAM!  Where did all that music come from?  I was stunned at the difference.  I sat in amazement for the rest of the reel, switching back to the CD occasionally to be sure I was really hearing what I was hearing.  I never played the second reel.  Next day, I took a close look at my heads - didn't want to be damaging that valuable tape!  It's hard to get a real good look, but they looked a bit worn, based on some of the info on JRF's site and others.  Now I'm thinkin', if the music sounds that good with worn, and probably misaligned, heads and the wrong equalization and a substandard internal preamp, how much better can it get with all those things corrected?  A lot better, I'm thinkin'. 

After a few email exchanges with docB and John French, I'm convinced.  Do it!  So I done it.  And now I'm totally hooked.  A budding tapehead.  A new adventure for this old analog dude.  Life is good!

Jim Grant
East Coast
Jim Grant, CT:  BH Technics RS1500 (en route), BH-built Tape Seduction, Rega Planar 3 + Sumiko Blackbird + Bellari VP129, Magnum Dynalab FT 11, Nakamichi CR-1A, Oppo DV-970HD, Alesis Masterlink CD recorder, Jolida SJ 202A, Paradigm 11SE MkII.  Cables - yes.

Offline jcmusic

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2008, 08:50:55 PM »
Yea!!!!!!! way to go Jim, I could not agree with your more. I hope everything works out for you and your deck. Thanks for posting your opinion as well.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.

Offline Tubes n tapes

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2008, 10:11:42 PM »
Well since we are stirring the pot.
With 16 R2R's, not counting anything that doesn't take 10.5" reels you could say that I'm more than a bit of a tape dude. Increase that with the fact that my top machine is a Studer A810 with full tube playback electronics and I think I am in a pretty decent position to judge the performance of analog tape.  And it has to be said it sounds absolutely marvelous! Especially playing some of the TP and Quinton tapes.

On the other hand I also have CD playback that meets the performance of the very best digital playback you can get in today's market. With a modern mastered CD the audio performance of that gets real close to that of the very best tapes I have.

What I want to say is that if someone's standard RS1500, or any other standard R2R machine for that reason, outperforms his CD playback, there is a much higher urgency to seriously upgrade ones CD playback. All the absolute fantastic recordings you are missing that are available on CD. After that there is always time to start cleaning up your R2R playback.

Arian.

Arian Jansen.

SonoruS Audio.
VP of technology of the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society (LAOCAS).
ESL/OTL builder and modest Studer/ReVox collector.

Offline jgbeam

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 05:24:25 AM »

What I want to say is that if someone's standard RS1500, or any other standard R2R machine for that reason, outperforms his CD playback, there is a much higher urgency to seriously upgrade ones CD playback. All the absolute fantastic recordings you are missing that are available on CD. After that there is always time to start cleaning up your R2R playback.

Arian.



Good point, Arian.  My CD player is not high end (Oppo DV-970HD) but has been favorably reviewed in the press.  I thought it sounded pretty good.  Other than a brief time with the fabled Philips SACD1000 before it tanked, I've never had what one would regard as a "high end" CD machine.  How much, would you opine, would one have to spend on digital playback to equal a stock RS1500?

Jim
Jim Grant, CT:  BH Technics RS1500 (en route), BH-built Tape Seduction, Rega Planar 3 + Sumiko Blackbird + Bellari VP129, Magnum Dynalab FT 11, Nakamichi CR-1A, Oppo DV-970HD, Alesis Masterlink CD recorder, Jolida SJ 202A, Paradigm 11SE MkII.  Cables - yes.

Offline docb

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 10:53:04 PM »
For the record, the current member count is 207. Paul has expressed that it might be useful if folks who are lurking introduce themselves here, as someone suggested early on in the lifetime of the forum. This will get more interesting info out there with which to stimulate some conversation.

I'm second most prolific poster behind ironbut, and I have started more topics and logged more time on the forum than anyone. My advice to you guys who are frustrated at the low level of participation is keep making more contributions of your own and hope that others will follow suit.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
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Offline Tubes n tapes

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2008, 12:52:28 AM »
Quote
How much, would you opine, would one have to spend on digital playback to equal a stock RS1500?

Not that much, because a stock RS1500 doesn't sound that good, really. It sounds muddy and has a very flat soundstage. A good deal on a budget CD player would be the 'Njoe Tjoeb' (not because I'm Dutch). For something around $600 it gives you some real music. It falls under the category of CD players that don't fully get rid of the digital glare, but add some pleasant 'tube gravy'. From that point of view it does about the same as a ModWright, but for only a fraction of the cost.

I'm sure that there are a number of other sub $1000 CD players that can easily outperform a stock RS1500, because it really doesn't take that much.

In all cases the end result is obviously never better than the quality of the recording/mastering. Most 1984 CD masterings won't sound even half decent on a $20,000 CD player, but many 21st century masterings will sound very good on a player like the Njoe Tjoeb or something along those lines, and absolutely stunning on a state of the art player.
 
Arian Jansen.

SonoruS Audio.
VP of technology of the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society (LAOCAS).
ESL/OTL builder and modest Studer/ReVox collector.

Offline jcmusic

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2008, 07:20:00 AM »
I fully agree, I have a Njoe Tjoeb 4000 with the upsampler and I think it sounds great. It is a very analogue sounding CDP in my opinion. With the ability to roll a number of tubes you can custom the sound somewhat to your taste.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.

Offline docb

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 08:35:39 AM »
I'm not sure that I'm going so far as to agree that a stock RS1500 is so bad that a budget CD player will outdo it, but I do agree with Arian that the dominant characteristic of the stock RS1500 playback electronics is "muddy".

The Njoe Tjoeb is a nice sounding player. Some tube circuits may sand off the gritty corners a bit, but it's often more of an after-the-fact method of removing fatigue than some more direct approaches like going to a music server to reduce the read errors and jitter and using the best DAC you can. Since I use tube gear throughout I find that taking the signal directly from the DAC chip is more effective than adding a tube buffer. It really depends upon the system.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline jcmusic

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2008, 10:12:33 AM »
Let me clarify my statememnt, I ment that I agree about the CDP. I have no idea what the RS 1500 sounds like.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.

Offline Tubes n tapes

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2008, 11:09:35 AM »
Dan's remarks on the tube buffer method used by many CD player manufacturers are very true. I often call it 'digital sound with tube gravy'. The Njoe Tjoeb certainly falls into that category, but for a budget player like that I think it is allowed. It gives you a pleasant analog sound even though that may not necessarily be a true representation of what's on the CD. However, there are also many CD players that do exactly the same at 10 times the price tag. I don't think that's acceptable.

Coupling the tubes directly to the DAC chips is indeed the only way to go. In my tube DAC I've been able to do that to the extend that the analog signal only exists in the tube domain. Pretty much all digital artifact dissappear in that case, except for some of the small inherent limitations of the CD format. Nowadays, those limitations are incredibly less audible than I had ever dare to imagine 20 years ago.

Again, everything stands or falls by the quality of the recording and the mastering. Almost all the real improvements in CD sound quality are thanks to the vast improvements on the recording and mastering side, which now allows the bring out the full capabilities of the CD format. And those are even for an analog tape freak like myself pretty phenomenal.



Arian Jansen.

SonoruS Audio.
VP of technology of the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society (LAOCAS).
ESL/OTL builder and modest Studer/ReVox collector.

Offline jcmusic

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Re: Disscusions
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2008, 11:45:11 AM »
Hey Tubes, I am with that especially the part about the money. I do have a seperate tube DAC that I will use from time to time, but with it tube choices are extremely limited. Hence the Njoe Tjoeb sees more action.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.