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Author Topic: R2R Dubbing  (Read 4034 times)

Offline jcmusic

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R2R Dubbing
« on: June 17, 2008, 06:59:30 PM »
I want to make some recordings from pre-recorded tapes @ 7 1/2ips to 15ips, what would be the pros and cons of doing this?

Jay
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Offline ironbut

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 07:17:26 PM »
No matter what the second format is, you get generational losses. Because of that, the duplicate will never have the fidelity of the original. You can minimize this by duplicating it to the best format available to you and that would be 15 ips/1/2 track if I read your machines correctly. The condition of the original will have a lot to do with your results. What makes sense will vary from tape to tape. You're using up tape at a pretty good clip at 15ips but if it sound significantly better, end of story. Just what is significant is up to you. For me, if I have to A/B it, it ain't significant. That goes for transfers, cables, component upgrades and software formats.
The next step up from significant is "Sweet!" then on up to " I gotta have that!".
steve koto
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Offline jcmusic

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 08:32:45 PM »
So Steve you are saying that my results will vary from tape to tape depending on the original? So there will be no real advantage in using the higher speed? I thought that by using the higher speed I could offset the generational loss.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.

Offline ironbut

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 09:47:30 PM »
You can minimize the loss by using a higher speed. On a really great sounding original, I think that you should try doing a comparison. I keep a few 7" reels of the blank tape that my main deck is biased for. I use them for testing of one kind or another. They come in super handy for things just like you're doing. You can record half a song at 7.5 ips then the other half at 15 ips. Listen for things like transient snap and high frequency extension. Those are some of the likely clues to generational losses. A great sounding tape will have texture to burn and considering that the sound will travel through 3 stages of amplification, it"ll need it. On the other hand, some tapes that may have been recorded with a "hot" top end, may actually benefit from a little tape compression and rolling off.
Bottom line is what "you" listen for.
steve koto
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Offline jcmusic

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 06:04:24 AM »
Steve what 3 stages of amplification are you speaking of? I was considering going directly from one deck to the other.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
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Offline ironbut

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 05:05:26 PM »
1. Playback amp deck A.
2.Record amp deck B.
3.Playback amp deck B.
Granted, #1 is going to happen no matter how you decide to listen to the tape.
Just a wild guess, but are you trying to avoid wear on the original? If this is the case, here's what I would do.
1. Make sure that your playback machine is in perfect working order. Do regular cleaning (and if you listen to old tapes a lot, do it twice as often).
2. Treat you tapes and tape path with Last Tape Preservative and Head treatment (really cuts down on oxide shedding and improves highs by reducing scrape flutter).
3. Attach enough leader to either end of the tape so you won't have to handle anything but leader when spooling the tape.
4. Always store the tape in "played" (instead of rewind/ff) in it's box in a cool dry place.
5.PLAY the Original! I have some tubes that are almost impossible to find and I don't even know what they cost now. I used to keep them safely in a well labeled box in the closet. One day, I needed a pair of that type of tube and I was just about to order some lesser ones when I remembered about the one's in my closet. What was I waiting for,.. that dream system upgrade or the Greyhound bus that would leave it up to my heirs if they should throw them in the garbage or the recycling bin.
I guess what I'm saying is that copying any tape to any tape is going to degrade the sound. How much depends on the two decks and the blank tape. I can't tell you if it's worth it because I'm not you. Do some tests and find out for sure.
steve koto
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Offline Tubes n tapes

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 05:46:42 PM »
Steve,

I like your remarks about using the best stuff you have now. I often used to stash away the good stuff and first used up the second rank, until I realized that in some cases it was all obsolete end I never got to enjoy the best of it.

What is  'Last Tape Preservative and Head treatment'?
Arian Jansen.

SonoruS Audio.
VP of technology of the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society (LAOCAS).
ESL/OTL builder and modest Studer/ReVox collector.

Offline ironbut

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 07:07:57 PM »
I knew someone would ask that!  Here's an old post I made with some tests I made with the Last tape products (when I first heard about them and found out they still produce them, it blew my mind).
http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php/topic,240.0.html
The test of the Last stuff begins on the 7th post.
Here's a link to their site;
http://www.lastfactory.com/tape_care.html
steve koto
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Offline jcmusic

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 08:12:03 PM »
You know what Steve those are all good points, I never thought about it that way. What I was trying t accomplish was to be able to afford more of the higher priced tapes on the bay, record them and then back to the bay.

Jay
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Offline ironbut

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 09:22:33 PM »
Not a bad idea Jay. The prices are pretty crazy. In that case, I don't think you'd have to go on a tape by tape basis (you certainly could but it might be a waste of time). After you did tests on a couple of eBay wins, I think you could just preview the next ones (listen to them once)to determine which speed you'd like to record "your" copy.
Just to throw some numbers at you, my machine is biased for RMGI 911 at the moment. If I were to record @15ips 1/2 track, it would take 2 10.5" 2500 reels to record one 1/4 track 7.5 ips tape (usually less). That's about $100 for the tape. If I recorded at 7.5ips 1/2 track, that would be about $32. If the original tape cost under $100,.. well, you get the idea. Of course you could record it on a 1/4 track machine and half that cost but the quality would really go down too.
steve koto
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Offline jcmusic

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 11:21:09 PM »
Steve very good points for sure, I will have to look into the blank tape end as well. I think first I will run some test copies to learn which speed I can live with. Have you ever done anything like this in the past? What were the results?

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 07:37:28 AM »
Jay,
One factor you may have discounted is that of your time.
Bidding buying on Ebay, the entire recording process from prep to post, and then selling on Ebay etc whew!
I do not know the value you place on your time, how old you are, or how long you expect to live, but I think you are coming up short on several counts.
If you already owned these tapes and had paid substantially lower prices that would be one thing, but I am afraid it sounds as though you are losing money on each transaction but making up for it in volume.
If you enjoy recording and all that goes with it knock yourself out, but this sounds as though you are chasing your tail.

Offline jcmusic

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Re: R2R Dubbing
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 08:51:22 PM »
Well I do enjoy recording to an extent, however I would have it different in a perfect world. I am merely tryig to offset the cost of some of the higher costing tapes. If I can win a tape copy it and get most of my cash back, and have a good sounding recording then I will more than likely be happy.

Jay
Redpoint Model D TT/Soundsmith Sotto Voce Cartridge Otari MX 5050 BII/BH Tube Repro deHavilland Model 222
 Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000, Rogue Magnum 99, Korneff 45 SET Amp, Klipsch K-Horns Bass Bins/2" Tractrix Horns 2" BMS Drivers, Vintage Tubes.