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Author Topic: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?  (Read 10369 times)

Offline ironbut

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New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« on: July 13, 2008, 11:26:46 AM »
There have been a number of refurbished, modified RS15xx Technics machines and Repro amps shipped now. If you've hung out here very long, you've read my shameless rants about the rig I have. I'd love to hear what you guys think. Some of you have had your set-up long enough to have done some tweaking ( tubes, cables) so share what you've learned so far.
I've found (as I've mentioned in a previous post) that cables have a pretty dramatic effect on the sound. I'm not a cable crazy guy but I've always conceded that they can be the source of the artifacts that can make music sound like an electronic reproduction instead of the real thing (btw I'm not a huge subscriber to the whole 'absolute sound' thing where the target is a recreation of the venue, but rather, I aim at 'creating' a new, fully realized venue in my head). I think that these tapes are so good that any noise stands out like a sore thumb.
So, has anyone tried different powering options (conditioners, cables or even battery power for the 15xx)?
Any equipment stands, isolation devices or footers for the Repro/Seductions?
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline astrotoy

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 09:55:52 PM »
I've had my Repro modded 1506 for several months. I haven't played with the tubes, but Dan did just before I got it from him. He can tell you what went into my Repro. As for cables, I am using the Stock Bottlehead cables between the Technics and the Repro that came with the combo. I use the Speltz anti-IC's throughout my system including between the Repro and my preamp. At one point I used a balanced set of Spetz anti-IC's but that wasn't as good as the unbalanced output of the Repro. Dan told me that the balanced set goes through one more stage than the unbalanced. You can hear it if you can make it to Orinda on the 19th.  Larry
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Offline JoeG

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 07:09:42 PM »
I count myself as one of the fortunates to have a Jeff Jacobs refurbished/Doc Bottlehead modified RS1500 and a new Bottlehead built Seduction. With each successive day of break-in the Seduction opens up more and more. As I sit here typing this i am listening to Dave Alvin (TP002B) playing on the system with just rolled NOS matched pair of Toshiba 6DJ8s in the Seduction. "Mary Brown" is playing and I don't want it to end. Two more tape shipments are due to arrive this week (15th and 18th) so I will be doubling my pleasure and doubling my fun.
Joe Galbraith
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J-corder/Bottlehead Technics 1500>King/Cello pre, Bottlehead Seduction, Walker Audio Proscenium Gold Signature TT>Bluelectric Magic Diamond or Allnic Puritas>Allnic H3000 phono/L3000 line>KR Enterprises Antares>Kharma CE 2.2
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Offline MylesAstor

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 10:13:55 PM »
Hi Steve,

Let u know in a week or two. My Technics 1500US (JJ/doc modded) is here sitting here on a new Symposium isis rack. The Seduction, with Teflon V-caps is being shipped and should have it next week (it has at least 100 hrs on it if not more--I asked Paul to break it in since didn't have the patience to wait 300 hrs for the teflon caps to break in). Right now I'm going to use some Phoenix gold Bronze level interconnects, then try some others. (the PG is no longer available and was a mistake--the only one of the line that sounded real good and was a steal for the price.)

As a reviewer, I was especially interested in comparing the tape project tapes to the corresponding LPs (for fidelity to the tape and differences).

Best,

Myles
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 10:16:23 PM by MylesAstor »
Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables

Offline docb

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 10:57:37 PM »
Hi Myles,

Those V-caps will still need some break-in. I listened to them over the 4th of July. Give them quite a bit of play time before you judge them, as I found them to be a bit bass shy relative to the other tape head Seductions I had here. The first tape head Seduction I built had V-caps in it. It was the same way at first, and after they broke in it was really outstanding.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline MylesAstor

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 06:55:54 AM »
Hi Doc,

Thanks for the advice :) Know 'bout them Teflon caps all too well. Broke in two cj units equippped with Teflon caps and am still burning in the phono section. Not sure which is worse--tube amps or phono. See those hours ticking away on the amp's tubes --or the hassle setting up the Thor reverse RIAA to burn in the phono section. In the end though it's worth it. The teflon caps are IMHO, far and away the best caps. Wanted to use them years ago but no one made large enough values. Now that large values are available, they're hideously expensive. Oh well....

Myles
Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables

Offline Tubes n tapes

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 10:54:48 AM »

Just some unsolicited information on Teflon caps, since I work for a company that makes those things:

Teflon caps have some unique characteristics. Electrically they are about as perfect as can be, but Teflon has the mechanical properties of a liquid and therefore flows slowly when under pressure. In the case of Teflon caps, the actual value and the microphonic properties (probably the biggest drawback of Teflon caps) change over time when a DC voltage is applied. The value goes up and the microphonics go down, because the Teflon settles under the force of the electrostatic field in the cap.

So when a Teflon cap is used in AC only applications such as filters, the break-in effects are very small and can take years. However, if a Teflon cap is used as a coupling cap between the anode of a tube and the output of the amp, for instance, the break-in effects are significantly larger and it also goes a lot faster. (Months or weeks depending on the DC voltage applied.)

For that reason I would recommend if you use Teflon caps to keep the anode voltage of your amplifiers switched on all the time and only switch off your filament voltage to spare your tubes when not in use.
Arian Jansen.

SonoruS Audio.
VP of technology of the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society (LAOCAS).
ESL/OTL builder and modest Studer/ReVox collector.

Offline ironbut

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 08:14:25 PM »
Gee Arian, so you work for a company that makes teflon caps aye? Old buddy old pal! Just kidding, but thanks for that info. That may be the first time I've ever seen an explanation of why any cap would improve with use.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I guess I should list the things that I've found along the road that have improved the sound of my rig and some of the things that I've yet to explore.
I started out by building a Seduction (dead stock) and adding the tape head conversion (actually I started by pestering Doc about upgrades he made to his tube 900 series Ampex but that's a different story). It came with Phillips JAN 6922's and having had a good bit of experience with that type tube, I had a box of "also rans" that I keep around just in case other changes in my systems lend themselves to their particular flavor of sonics. One pair that, as I recall, weren't that bad (for the price of admission) were some NOS Russian 6h23n 1980's production. They have a lively, slightly forward sound and are pretty clear. They aren't as refined and smooth as my favorites but I think I paid a whopping $12 ea for them about 10 years ago and they may have gone up a couple since then. One thing I'd like to mention regarding tube choices in the Seduction. Another thing that the 6h23's had going for them is that they're quiet. If you've ever tube rolled a phono stage for use with a MC cartridge, than you know how important that can be. The tape hiss on the TP tapes is pretty far down there. In fact, when I've had former reel to reel guys listen to them at the demos I've done, that's one of the things that really surprises them. Most of us have plenty of records that have much more tape hiss than the TP tapes have (there are some whose masters obviously had more though). So getting the tube rush below or at that level has always been a consideration for me. Luckily, most of the tube stock that I have was purchased back when tube noise grading actually meant something. So, if you have a choice, go for the phono stage grade (or MC cartridge grade if available).
Another tube that is nice is a Tungsram 6922/E88CC. These were made in Hungary and while they aren't cheap anymore, they're available from lots of offshore sellers for reasonable prices. I find them a little veiled but unless I'm A/B-ing them, my ears/brain loses track of the veil and it become a non issue. They have a pleasing tube sound from top to bottom and while I wouldn't say that they have great extension, it isn't bad either.
Folks who know my tube preferences would have asked "which Amperex 7308?" right off the bat. Well, I went back a forth between the white labeled PQ and the green globe JAN. I find the white to have better bass but the green is quieter. The white label has skyrocketed in price in the last few years but there's a few things that can help you find a "relative" bargain. First off, some tubes were made to a higher standard. This doesn't mean that they sound better but man, do they last! The Amperex 7308 and Seimens and Halske Cca are a couple. They were manufactured with a harder vacuum and more refined materials (supposedly) and were touted as 10,000 hour tubes. That's more than 3 times the life of a normal tube. So, when I buy one that is twice the price of a comparable tube, I'm saving money in the long run (and I never ever rationalize damn it!). So, if you have a trusted tube seller with some nice used Amperex 7308's for cheap, go for it. I have some used ones in the phono stage of my preamp that have been in there for 6 years!
There are differing opinions on which Amperex tubes are best and IMHO, that's how it should be. For example, Doc likes the orange label and some folks say "you've gotta get the Holland production".
 I think it's a real testament to the sound quality of these tapes that it is pretty easy to identify problems or characteristics in the sound. It's just as easy to stop tweaking and just get lost in the music.
Oh, "what about the S&H Cca's?" you ask. Well, they just weren't for me and I sold off the last 4 I had 3 or 4 years ago for $70 each,.. sob sob.
For those of you who have a Repro amp, I'll refer you to a previous book I wrote on that subject in this forum.

http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php/topic,164.0.html

Hey,.. btw Welcome to the forum Myles (if you made it down this far!)
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline ironbut

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 10:01:14 PM »
I count myself as one of the fortunates to have a Jeff Jacobs refurbished/Doc Bottlehead modified RS1500 and a new Bottlehead built Seduction. With each successive day of break-in the Seduction opens up more and more. As I sit here typing this i am listening to Dave Alvin (TP002B) playing on the system with just rolled NOS matched pair of Toshiba 6DJ8s in the Seduction.
Hey Joe, I haven't tried any of the Toshiba's but some of them were developed and used by Luxman. Some of their gear was designed by Tim de Paravincini (preamps and amps) and the transformers used in their tube gear are highly sought after. The only Japanese tubes I've tried were some labeled NEC but one had a short so I never heard them. If you do any further tube rolling, I'd be interested in hearing some comparisons to other tubes.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
 HE Audio Jades

Offline MylesAstor

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 05:19:29 AM »

Hey,.. btw Welcome to the forum Myles (if you made it down this far!)
[/quote]

Thanks! Learning a lot from u guys. Kind of a babe in the woods next to most of you when it comes to R2R--but learning fast ;) Keep up the good info!

Myles
Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables

Offline JoeG

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Re: New TP/Bottlehead playback system owners?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 07:09:38 AM »
I count myself as one of the fortunates to have a Jeff Jacobs refurbished/Doc Bottlehead modified RS1500 and a new Bottlehead built Seduction. With each successive day of break-in the Seduction opens up more and more. As I sit here typing this i am listening to Dave Alvin (TP002B) playing on the system with just rolled NOS matched pair of Toshiba 6DJ8s in the Seduction.
Hey Joe, I haven't tried any of the Toshiba's but some of them were developed and used by Luxman. Some of their gear was designed by Tim de Paravincini (preamps and amps) and the transformers used in their tube gear are highly sought after. The only Japanese tubes I've tried were some labeled NEC but one had a short so I never heard them. If you do any further tube rolling, I'd be interested in hearing some comparisons to other tubes.

Steve-
So far, I am pretty impressed with the Toshibas. They were given to me by a friend, and he said they were a very closely matched pair from Tectronics. They seem to have reduced the noise floor over the stock EH and have a bit more in the upper octaves, with a presentation that is a tad more forward. The packaging they came in looks like it has been around the block for a number of years, but they were NOS before I put them in the Seduction. They don't have as much gain as the stock tubes, but have made for a quieter playback, noise wise. Most noticeable during the softer passages in tapes like 003 and 005.
Joe Galbraith
Charter sub #61
J-corder/Bottlehead Technics 1500>King/Cello pre, Bottlehead Seduction, Walker Audio Proscenium Gold Signature TT>Bluelectric Magic Diamond or Allnic Puritas>Allnic H3000 phono/L3000 line>KR Enterprises Antares>Kharma CE 2.2
Silent Source cable, Walker Audio Velocitors