TP-028, Nat Adderley's Work Song is now available

Author Topic: Subscribers, speak your peace  (Read 11623 times)

Offline ironbut

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Subscribers, speak your peace
« on: July 23, 2008, 12:13:50 AM »
Most of the current subscribers have received some of their tapes by now. And the more vocal among us have posted at least one rant here at one time or another. I noticed a post regarding the health of the Tape Project, and while I'm not privy to that information, I'm sure that the maximum number of releases allowed by the "rights" that have been paid for hasn't been met. At the same time, the number of members here has exceeded the maximum I mentioned above (and the number of visitors here is pretty high too) . I can only assume that many of these folks are still on the bubble, wondering just how good these tapes are.
I understand that some subscribers may not be the type that normally posts on these forums and there's nothing wrong with that. But, if you're bursting at the seams and telling all your friends and family about how great these tapes are, post something. Even if it's just a "Wow!", it'll let those reading it know that you love these releases. There's no real ads, so it's all word of mouth,.. our mouths. And while I'm not real worried about any premature demise, I'd be bummed to think that Doc, Paul and Michael weren't getting properly paid for their time and energy. 
Please don't take this as my asking on their behalf (that would be very presumptuous of me) but I thought that it was important to point out some benefits of expressing your thoughts here that may not be quite so obvious.
I sincerely hope that when I'm in my 90's, I'll be soiling myself in anticipation of the next release,.. sincerely! 
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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 06:00:56 AM »
Steve,
I may have a better excuse than most for not posting any reviews as all my audio equipment is in boxes, my listening room is gutted, and the house is being overrun with rtr tapes new and old.
In spite of evidence to the contrary, I would prefer to listen to music than talk/write about it or the equipment that I use to play it.
Now as for you other folks; what is your excuse hmmm?

Just about anyone knows that referral business is just about the best business you can receive no matter what you do.
The TP is not a self perpetuating enterprise.
Short of overblown claims of the sonic qualities (whitens teeth; freshens breath) of the TP releases, we owe it to ourelves to help attract more purchasing members to the TP through our real world testimonials.

In my opinion here may be some impediments to putting our best foot forward.
1. Sloth- I have found that most people including me prefer to take the easier path if given the choice.  Rather than suggesting that folks go find samples of the music being offered  the TP should provide links to the samples, or have them on site to listen to.
Just because these titles are considered 'classics' for any number of reasons, not everybody knows them by heart.  Shameful isn't it?
2. Sloth II- The way the Forum is arranged, threads dealing with or related to the same topic can appear in such a way that unless a person is particularly dedicated to finding the subject, or knowing where to find the subject, they may never see it.
I suggest a Listener's thread where a new topic line for each title is created upon the release of that tape. ( good place for the sound bites too).
All the comments/reviews would be in one place on one thread for the title in question.
Easy Easy Easy
3. Ebay/Audigon- There is one entrepreneur who is selling a newly recorded rtr tape in several different configurations typically on a "Buy It Now" basis.
He is asking about what the TP is charging for his 15 IPS 2 track version and while his product looks nice, in my opinion it is not up to the TP standards as respects fit and finish.  Keep in mind I cannot listen to that tape either.
In the sales listing he states that there is an approximate two week delay between payment and delivery.
I would think that TP could live with a similar arrangement, especially when the initial subscription demand is met.
Then there is the sale of the gear; I am thinking Audigon here, and not just ads.
4. 'Phile' sites- The only reason I know about TP is because of a banner ad on Audiogon.
What about the other 'Phile' sites?
Not every avid listener cruises the internet like a shark.  I hope they are actually enjoying their music.
Once my set up is running again you might never hear from me again; then again you cannot be that lucky.
5. Synergy- There is a reputable Ebay rtr seller that I alerted to TP when I was purchasing my Otaris/Tascam machines about 9 months ago.  He now is referencing TP in his machine listings.  That is only of value to those who know what TP is.
There is a business networking opportunity there; think microsoft versus Apple approach to licensing.
6. Two heads are better than...  I suspect that the TP owners have more than enough things to deal with as it is.  If we are the enthusiasts, shouldn't we consider offering them a hand?
Put down that soldering iron!!!!
I am thinking focus groups, think tanks, op ed pieces on the site, related content links, in other words offering sweat equity from subscribers; done in an organized thoughtful manner, not helter skelter.
ALL of this under the DIRECTION and with the APPROVAL of the TP owners.
I am not suggesting that the crew hijack the site.
7. In the time it took me to type/think about this post, I might have been able to do something to really benefit the TP.  I do not care how busy you are you have the time, especially if there are enough of us who want to give it a try.
8. Ask - What a concept; see my other hair brained post under General Discussion.
If I have not provoked you to thought, and you haven't skipped to something else, go play a TP tape and ask yourself if the money you spent on the tape and the equipment to play it on was worth the enjoyment you just experienced.
If not sell it.
If so, consider how you can be an advocate.

 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 06:19:21 AM by ceved »

Offline JoeG

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 09:28:53 AM »
Anyone who has had the good fortune and wherewithal to get involved with the Tape Project as a subscriber and, as in my case, the proud owner of a Jeff Jacobs/Doc B RS1500 setup, probably is to some extent spreading the word.

I have invited Michael Lavorgna from 6 Moons to see the setup and listen to the music. He in turn, put a very complimentary piece on their site.

Two weeks ago I had 35 members of my audio group in my listening room for tape playback. For all of them, it was their first exposure to the product in person.

Several dealer/manufacturer acquaintances of mine will have rooms at RMAF. We are currently discussing the possibility of my rig and tapes going out there (with me of course) in order to have the TP in yet another room.

Traction for the project is growing as more of the audio press and audio on-line forums have threads running discussing the project. The downside is the danger of become a victim of success.

Doc, Romo and Paul are really busy just trying to get the first round of 10 out to the existing charter subscribers and then have to start filling orders for individual tape requests. All the while, beginning the licensing and selection process for the next group. I want to send my heart felt thanks to them for keeping the quality of each and every release high, taking the time to do it the right way, and having the instinct to take on the project in the first place.

I also wish to extend my appreciation to the subscribers and posters on this forum for your patience with respect to delivery of the product, for your thoughtful, helpful posts here, and in closing: I extend an invitation to anyone reading these pages who is "on the fence" regarding whether they should take the leap as a subscriber; I am willing to open my listening room to folks near the Philadelphia area who want to hear for themselves.

Each of us, in our own way, has been promoting this incredible thing known as the Tape Project. If it stays small (but big enough to make economic sense) then the early adopters are part of something akin to ownership of exotic automobiles. If it grows, maybe the early adopters are like the folks who never stopped listening to vinyl. Look at the incredible growth that has had in the last few years.
Joe Galbraith
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J-corder/Bottlehead Technics 1500>King/Cello pre, Bottlehead Seduction, Walker Audio Proscenium Gold Signature TT>Bluelectric Magic Diamond or Allnic Puritas>Allnic H3000 phono/L3000 line>KR Enterprises Antares>Kharma CE 2.2
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Offline docb

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 02:26:39 PM »
Wow, this a cool thread. There are a couple other good threads right now too, that I'll try to address here.

1 - We plan to keep making tapes. No worries there.

2 - The way that this project works for everyone involved - both us and you subscribers - has proven rather long and at times tedious. Like many extreme endeavors, the process itself can't really be sped up without compromising quality. Now that we have a handle on the process the alternative seems to be to install more slaves, more engravers and more printers. We are looking into this, but we are also aware that we are putting out an expensive product and folks would sensitive to any increase due to a major equipment purchase. ATRs aren't cheap...

3 - the next set of titles:
We are working on it. Once the three of us decide what we want to go for, we rely on Paul's knowledge of the industry in working with the personnel at the labels. This is a part of the business that we don't have a lot of control over in terms of the timing and sometimes Paul has to talk to several different folks to get their approval before a license appears. From my hindsight perspective we shot ourselves in the foot by attaching a year to the first series of titles. We didn't know how long it would take to get into production, nor how long it would take to get through production as the ranks of subscribers grew and we had to go back and make second and third runs of albums between runs of albums we haven't yet shipped. It looks like we will continue to sell new subscriptions to that series for a while more even though it has been labeled 2007. So when we add a new series we will probably give it a number or color or odor designator instead of a year. Perhaps that will help folks avoid the need to attach a time frame to timeless recordings.

4 - please don't take the above the wrong way - I truly appreciate the patience everyone has shown as we have methodically worked our way through from "hey let's start a record label - waiter, one more G&T over here" to "whoa, we need to order more flanges!" Hopefully the positive comments we are seeing now that most subscribers have some tapes means that folks thought the wait was worth it.

5 - I too, would love to see more posts of subscriber listening impressions.

6 - I really like the idea of a separate sub-thread for each album, so that folks who are thinking about subscribing can read the impressions of those who have heard it. I will look into setting this up.

7 - Things like Joe did in getting 6 Moons to listen to what we are doing are great. In fact I saw a big bump in page views yesterday, that I would attribute to his help in getting that article written.  Bottlehead was built upon the enthusiasm and sharing of the community of customer/builders and I think Tape Project will benefit from similar exposure of the tapes to their local audiophile communities by TP subscribers. If everyone took a little of the energy that ironbut has put into promoting us at headphone events, we'd probably see some more big bumps in our audience size.

8 - "I'd be bummed to think that Doc, Paul and Michael weren't getting properly paid for their time and energy. " - no problem, as we aren't getting paid from TP, yet. Keep buying repro preamps and machine upgrades so I can pay my bills and stay in the fight. ;^)>
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 02:38:35 PM by docb »
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 06:42:06 PM »
Dan,
I was taken by your comment about the catch 22 (my characterization) that you seem to be in where you need more production capacity, but are reluctant to cause prices to increase.  "ATRs aren't cheap".
I will try to make this succinct.
The typical TP release is the nth degree in what is commercially available to the consumer in the analog format.
A persistent problem with the progress of the format is the lack of 'in production' new machines and the lack of newly produced software.
TP has experienced the difficulty of supplying demand.

Can you outsource production to trusted facilities to increase output?
Can you offer a line of titles which while still excellent sonically are not the nth degree?
Reduce speed to 7 1/2, reduce the remastering time/piggy back with titles already remastered by say MFSL and others.
Produce a line of TP 'light' recordings to justify the additional infrastructure costs ( and help pay for them as well) and increase product available for sale.
Reduce the artwork and packaging costs, plastic reels, record on used tape; Now hold on a darn minute!!!!
Or issue excellent recordings w/o the gingerbread.  Would this help increase production/reduce release time?  If gingerbread floats your boat, make it available later as an option.
Personally a plain paper sack works for me.
Would any of this help address the problem?

I am not saying throw in the towel on your principles; but as you said it was one thing to say 'let's start a company', and quite another to run the company.
Dan, I do not expect or want you to run your business on this or any Forum.
This is really directed to my fellow subscribers.
If I had to choose, I would take more excellent recordings in order to have a few great recordings in deluxe issues than a few deluxe issues.
Remember the RCA Soria Series?
I think you pretty much have to finish out the inaugural year as advertised, but I for one would encourage you to consider other options for subsequent years to really get this baby rolling.

Anybody else have any ideas to help the fellas out?
Let's hear from you.
Think I'm an idiot?
Come up with a better idea.
I dare you (in a friendly non threatening manner of course).
Blame this all on Master Steve, he got me all fired up. 
By the way, where is Steve anyway?
Anybody seen Steve?
Yo Steve!


 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 06:49:12 PM by ceved »

Offline docb

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 07:33:00 PM »
Thanks Charles,

To address a few of your thoughts -

Regarding 7.5 ips 1/2 or 1/4 track. We did a lot of experimentation, and we feel it gets too far away from the sound of the master tape. What got us revved in the first place was thinking how cool it was that we could sit around in Michael's and Paul's studios listening to these incredible masters while most audiophiles are stuck listening to CDs and LPs. That's the particular sensation we wanted to share. We get more excited talking about doing special 1/2" 15 ips copies for folks who might be willing to truly go for it.

We feel that our skill set lies in that direction rather than in trying to "mass" market a narrow niche product. I do wonder, occasionally, how many more folks would subscribe if we ended up doing 7.5 ips tapes. They would still have to cost a lot, more than what I suspect some folks think they might be able to buy them for. The typical customer who would want the 7.5 ips tape because it is less costly would be more be hesitant to buy a subscription and would probably want single titles. Those single titles have to sell for a higher price than subscription pricing. At 7.5 ips I think you are in a realm where a really good LP rig can compete and may be more cost effective. Certainly if the sticking point is the number of titles available in order to justify the equipment expenditure, LPs will always be in greater abundance. All these factors might be putting us into a market that actually has less potential than 15 ips master dubs. Not that I know that for sure, of course.

With respect to farming out duplication, there are some very nice archiving facilities but there really aren't any other tape duplicating facilities in the world that have our level of equipment. The duping process itself is just one of the steps that can be time consuming, but it's only an issue as part of the process of several of these time consuming steps run together. In fact we could run a second shift, and we have discussed this in a hand waving sort of fashion. Having said that we may have more duping capacity left if we run a second shift, perhaps other labels would be interested in us doing tapes for them?

Plastic reels seem to have all been consumed. We have looked without success for 10" plastic reels and 7" low torque hub reels in production quantities. We have been told the molds don't even exist for the low torque reels anymore. So metal reels are pretty much a necessity.

I hope I'm not coming off like a curmudgeon, Charles. If so, smack me! I sincerely appreciate the input. Just trying to toss out a few data points about why the project has gone the direction it has.

We have figured out a lot of small ways to improve the production rate and these things are starting to add up to a better pace of delivery. I suspect that each month it will continue to get quicker.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2008, 08:26:35 PM »
Dan,
No negative vibes taken.
For those individuals already heavily committed to the rtr format even on a legacy basis the TP must seem like a dream come true.
For the later adapters ( me among them) the start up costs are considerable even for a modest venture into the format.
Compound the equipment costs with the upward spiralling costs of available used software and you can get faint.
(It might be interesting to know how many of the active rtr Ebayers out there are also TP subscribers.
It might be more interesting to know how many aren't and why they aren't.)

If the TP business model cannot satisfy a more 'mass market' approach, first and foremost congratulations for not trying to be something that you are not, and do not want to be.  'To thine own self be true'.  No need to ruin a good thing; and TP is a good thing.
Perhaps there is an MFSL or BC successor out there that can be enticed to pick up that opportunity and run with it on a more mass marketing approach.   However based upon your comments that appears unlikely if only for the dubbing necessary to crank out product unless you can develop a joint venture with Music Direct,  Chad Kassem or some other company of that type for a cash infusion with the marketing clout and licensing contacts to broaden the possibilities and get your product in front of more audiophiles.
If you only had to be concerned with production duties that might be a benefit.

As regards the second shift idea, you might try the Keebler elves, I have heard that there were some lay offs at the tree recently!
The duping for other labels might be a cracker jack idea especially for small indie labels that seem to be embracing small runs of LPs.
Drive By Truckes on rtr tape holy smokes!

Think of it newly recorded work by current artist on rtr tape, now wouldn't that be nice.
Anybody know Neil Young.
He likes good sound!
Unfortunately the Washington/Baltimore area to my knowledge is a virtual wasteland compared to the grass roots activities reported herein by others.
My previous rants/good natured jibes were/are pure jealousy.
All that is left for me is the occasional 'patience hell, I'm going to kill something' buzzard on a branch speech.



« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 08:32:25 PM by ceved »

Offline ironbut

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2008, 10:57:05 PM »
I really like the sub forum per release idea. That would be great for folks that just want to "try the waters" with a couple of releases.
I feel pretty confident that the "process" as Dan puts it, will become smoother and more efficient as time goes on. I don't know if it would be wise to invest in more equipment until all the bugs have been worked out in every area of putting the product together.
I think that Charles has come up with some pretty cool ideas. I'd love to see some of the artists agree to limited edition reel to reels of their latest and greatest releases (like Jacqui's). There's quite a few that do runs of vinyl now. As the current evolution of the record industry seems to be moving production away from the big companies, I think that small prestige production runs will become more common. There's always the question of how it was recorded (digital) but there's still lots that are recorded on analog tape.
Also, I think that the members here could be a valuable resource. I think that most of the "early adopters" which all of us are, feel more like members than customers and would be happy, if not thrilled to lend a hand.
steve koto
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Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 06:24:37 PM »
Doc--
Thanks for indirectly replying to my post on the Tape Project Album forum that has apparently gone kaput.

I'm glad to hear that there will be future releases.  I agree that it would have been a better idea to forget about the "years" and perhaps would have been better to go with something like "Series 1" for these first 10 tapes, "Series 2" for the next 10 and on and on.  That said, is it really too late to change that??  I think you could very easily with some manipulation of the text on this site.  It would also make lurkers and future subscribers to "feel better" about not getting hung up on the fact that you are behind the schedule you wanted to be at by now.  All they would know is that "Series 1" is still in production, which would be no big deal at all.  It's all about perception, that's just my .02.

I also certainly understand if perhaps the philosophy is to catch up on the first 10 before announcing the next set of releases.  Makes sense not to get too backed up.
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

Offline docb

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 06:31:23 PM »
Thanks, Joel,

I think that is what we'll do, change to series numbers. BTW your Seduction shipped off today. We gave her a test flight on my system and all was good.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline xcortes

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 07:49:09 PM »
Quote
We gave her a test flight

So Seductions are shes?
Xavier Cortes

Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 08:15:57 PM »
Thanks Doc on both accounts---First, that you liked my idea AND second that "she" is en-route!!!  ;)
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2008, 08:33:51 PM »
Well,
Never one to be shy, and with the idea of a possible second dubbing shift for labels looking to outsource limited rtr releases, I was motivated to email inquiry an to Sundazed Records general mailbox asking them if they had ever given an rtr release a thought and suggested that they look the TP up if they even had  smidgen of interest in the format.  I recall long ago on another thread there were rumblings that we might take it upon ourselves to alert certain labels of the possibility of rtr releases in limited numbers.
Dan, I hope you weren't eating or drinking anything when you read this.  Himelock!!!!!
Don't worry, I was very non committal, and made it clear that I was Mr. Nobody here at the TP, and did not pitch them to set up a dubbing session next week.
Just a working stiff with a subscription looking for possibilities.
However if Bob Irwin gets in touch with you to talk shop, you will know who to blame.
Seriously, I believe that Sundazed might be a great  candidate to approach for this purpose.  The sad thing is that as Mr. Nobody, I might not get much of a response.  I can hear the delete button being pushed now if the email gets past the spam filter.
Dan, did I hear you mutter 'thank heavens for little things'?
Anyone have an in at Sundazed?  You folks in New York state, anyone know Bob Irwin?
I might have a better reception at Music Direct, I have a good business friend who might give me a sympathetic ear for a contact for MFSL material.
Dan, if this type of activity gives you ulcers, I won't do it.  If we are off the radar of possibility, can it hurt to put the 'bug' in someone's ear?
I assure you that the email was restrained and in good taste, not like my normal posts here on the forum.

As for Joel's idea were you thinking Arabic numbers, or roman numerals?
Remember the ending of the TV show Dragnet?
Now that's class!
Will Steve K swing the hammer or hold the stamper?







Shake the trees folks

Offline ironbut

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2008, 10:27:57 PM »
Jesus, how did you remember that Charles?
I really love what Sundazed is doing. Very affordable releases with pretty wide appeal to the audience who may be the most likely to buy them. I think that sales strategy is more tailored to someone doing the kind of 7.5ips releases you and Doc were discussing. That said, I would welcome some of the titles in their catalog.
I think your idea of contacting some of these guys like Irwin is great. Really early on (before any tapes had been released) I contacted a few of the guys that had done something with reel to reel to try and get them to make a few posts here on the forum about their experiences  but none accepted my invite. A few were doubtful since they make products that the Tape Project would compete for the same audiophile dollars. But, it certainly doesn't hurt to ask. Michael Cuscuna from Mosaic Records would be someone that I think I may try and contact. I just hope that the scathing emails I sent when they discontinued selling vinyl never reached him!
It may be a little low on the "rights securing" food chain but you never know. Cuscuna seems to have a talent for finding and securing some pretty amazing music.
I'm very interested to see how the last 3 Fantasy Records titles will sell. Hopefully one or more of the audio press will post a review about the same time and I'll never know.
Returning to CV's television reference, I was thinking about a Tape Project infomercial. Romo would make a great Aussie pitch man, " and if you call now, we'll throw in a second tape for free! So, that's 2 top of the line master dubs in deluxe leatherette binding, the Charter Membership plaque (suitable for framing), and the custom alignment tape!"
steve koto
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 HE Audio Jades

Offline JoeG

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Re: Subscribers, speak your peace
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2008, 12:15:36 PM »
Re: a TP informercial: ".... and if you are one of the first 500 callers, we'll throw in two microfiber towels. These are extra thirsty and absorbent, and will come in handy, helping you mop up the tears of joy you're sure to shed as you listen to these tapes. That's two tapes, the collectors plaque, an alignment tape, and two limited edition microfiber towels in your choice of colors designed to coordinate with the hubs on your deck, all for one low price. Call now! Operators are standing by to assist you!
Joe Galbraith
Charter sub #61
J-corder/Bottlehead Technics 1500>King/Cello pre, Bottlehead Seduction, Walker Audio Proscenium Gold Signature TT>Bluelectric Magic Diamond or Allnic Puritas>Allnic H3000 phono/L3000 line>KR Enterprises Antares>Kharma CE 2.2
Silent Source cable, Walker Audio Velocitors