TP-027, Jerry Garcia / David Grisman wins a Writer's Choice Award from Myles Astor of Positive Feedback Online

Author Topic: Newby, here, with a few questions...  (Read 11354 times)

Offline porkchop

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Newby, here, with a few questions...
« on: August 19, 2008, 07:50:07 PM »
Hi guys,

I really like the idea of The Tape Project, but am somewhat perplexed as to what machine I should really go with, and your advice would be very helpful.  First, however, maybe a little background on me would be appropriate.

I have enjoyed this hobby for many, many years, and have always been a tape guy with various reel-to-reel and cassette decks under my belt such as a Pioneer 1020L, TEAC X-1000 and various Nakamichi and TEAC cassette decks...even had an original Wollensak! (sp?)  I also spent a great deal of time recording various bands and solo singers just for the fun of it.  Watch collecting is another, very expensive, avocation.  I continue to play semi-pro baseball for a northern Illinois-based team, and have even laced up the spikes for a few professional games, but it was awhile ago.  And I've probably got way too much education for my own good, and was a Naval Officer for a number of years.

In any event, I would like to get back into R2R in two formats:  2 track as required for The Tape Project, and the standard 1/4-track as comes with the typical consumer level deck.  What is really bugging me, however, are the insane prices that are being realized for the Technics R2Rs!  With extra Bottlehead gear and other asundry modifications added to the current asking price of the Technics 1500 series decks, it's way out of my price league...no...it's way out of the range that I am willing to pay.  So, I have consigned myself to either of two machines - the Revox B77 or a TEAC 2T such as the one model of the 3300 or the 6100 (I believe that's the model number).  And, yes, I know that I would have to set aside additional funding to bring the "old" machines up to spec.  To that end, however, here are my questions, and your input would be greatly appreciated:

1.  Can the appropriate TEAC machine (2T, 10 1/2" reels, 15ips, etc.) be modified to support the IEC equalization curve?
2.  Can either the Revox or TEAC machine be modified to utilize the Bottlehead electronics?
3.  Would I be losing that much fidelity by using either the Revox or TEAC as compared to the Technics machines when playing TTP tapes?
4.  Should I not even consider using a Revox or TEAC machine and just suck it up and pay the exhorbitant freight for a Technics?

That should just about cover it for now.  I eagerly await your responses.

Thanks,

Bob.

Robert S. Emmel

Offline Ben

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 08:39:00 PM »
 The dark side whispers * DIGITAL FOREVER*!
I also new and trying to find a R2R player -  Any in Canada!?
Once that is done,then I can get the music for listening to this winter.
All I can say is good luck on your quest.

I have budgeted about $1400 US for player and about $1400 US
for the 6 TP tapes since it just feels right. The tape project here
has me thinking back years ago ... I did want a R2R in the 70's but never had
the cash for a good stereo system or seen a real Hi-Fi system till about 2003
when I found about valve amps on the web. Only now that I have a 1/2 decent
music system -- I still need more room treatment -- do I dare go towards a more
professional source of music. LP's are not a option for me since I have no
quality LP's and a good turnable/pre-amp would set me back I suspect about
$3K+ US and still no music to play.
Set 45,Open baffle speakers,Otari 5050,,Pioneer DV-79AVi DVD/CD/SCAD player

Offline bobschneider

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 06:46:09 AM »
Have you considered an Otari MX-5050?  This is a pro deck (well, at least semi pro), that will play Tape Project tapes right out of the box - it has switchable IEC/NAB Eq, 10 1/2" reel capability, and 15 ips.  Most examples are 2 track record and play, plus a 4 track playback head, although other versions were made so you need to check the configuration of the specific deck you're looking at.  (Note that the current MX-5050 B3 normally doesn't have the 4 track head.)  This deck has been around in various versions since the 1970s, and is still being made - you can order a brand new one if you have $5000 to spend.  The good news is that these decks are plentiful, decent examples can be found for a few $100 on eBay or Craigslist, and parts are easy to find since Otari still makes and supports this deck.

The electronics in it aren't supposed to be anything special, but it's easy enough to add a direct head out so you can use a Seduction with it.  Or you can just POOGE the electronics.  I have one apart on my bench, which I'm doing both with.
Bob Schneider

Offline docb

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 09:16:06 AM »
Quote
Watch collecting is another, very expensive, avocation.

I almost felt guilty about the price of Technics tape recorders until I read that. You bring up a great point for comparison. As a watch collector myself I can state that there is no greater output of money for so little performance return. My $100 quartz "custom" Otto Frei is just as accurate as my Breitling AVI, it's much easier to read in both daytime and at night, and it doesn't stop just because I left it in the watch case for a few days. But the Breitling is cooler, no doubt, and a decent investment. It does not tell time any better.

In comparison, the price of a Technics RS1500 is justifiable for more than visual reasons, because is actually does it's job - sounding good - better than the other machines. There's certainly nothing wrong with buying an Otari or a Revox or Tascam/TEAC, they are good sounding machines with a good reputation. IMO they just won't sound quite as good as a Technics, particularly one that has been mechanically modified. Any of the machines can be modified to use outboard electronics and this will move them forward sonically.

Which machine will end up giving you the most from your expensive tapes? The modded Technics, or better yet an ATR from Mike Spitz or a Studer studio machine. All expensive to be sure. But not absolutely necessary - unless you really want to hear what tape is capable of sonically. Just be sure that any machine you buy is in good enough shape that it won't damage your tapes.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

ceved

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 05:25:54 PM »
You can't watch the show unless you are in the stadium/theatre etc. (foregoing mass media for the sake of argument)
Unless you are independently wealthy you probably did not buy the best of anything right off the bat.  Whether it be the best seat in the house, the best watch, or the best whatever tickles your fancy.
Why start now?
( I am using the universal you, not the you you).

I can trace my current stereo system uninterrupted to a Lafayette Electronics receiver my parents bought for me in King of Prussia Mall before I went to college.
It obviously made an impression upon me since I recall that level of detail for something that happened in 1968.

The most important aspect of your purchase is to get the machine which you can reasonably afford which will perform the most functions you need to enjoy TP tapes right off the bat as Doc says w/o doing harm to the tapes themselves.
Next, you need to consider which machine allows the most economical upgrades to approximate the machine you would like to ultimately own, and compare the costs to upgrade over time versus cold cash/credit now for the machine of your dreams.
Finally, you may want to consider the likelihood that you will end up with (at least) two machines, one to listen/record with the other to do tape maintenance/repair/evaluate quality if you already/plan to buy used tapes.
That machine will probably be this initial purchase if the gradual approach is the way you go.

But by all means, consider a machine which will treat your tapes gently.

I am keen on the Otaris for the reasons already posted on this thread, while fully acknowledging their limitations.  But I really like the looks and feel of the Tascam BR 20 as well.  The Technics? What can you say, except that the fellas at TP chose them for a reason, and it is their machine of preference. This is the prime modded machine from which mods to other manufacturers may eventually trickle down.

Good Listening


« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 05:57:35 PM by ceved »

Offline Ben

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 06:53:36 PM »
I am here because I am dissatisfied with the marketing of 'consumer' music and
all the lies that go with the product especially DIGITAL. Here I can see the music
has value, and no hype about what machine you have since it is up the user to define
quality.For me I want a machine with the 'magic' button that gives me 15IPS and
the proper EQ. Other paths like upgrading a cheap deck is a valid option depending
on what you can find. One you have a machine ... then you spend more $$$
upgrading your entire audio set up.
---------------------------------------
 Enjoy the music , life is short.

PS: In 1968 I was lucky to even hear radio out here in COLD LAKE!
The big thing for me back then was TV in living B&W.



Set 45,Open baffle speakers,Otari 5050,,Pioneer DV-79AVi DVD/CD/SCAD player

Offline ironbut

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 06:57:46 PM »
Well said Charles! I was hoping that someone who owns an Otari or Tascam would be able to suggest those.
I used to have some Lafayette gear too. That and Olsen Electronics were places my dad used to go. All can remember about those places was that it was totally bewildering with row after row of things I had no inkling about. I see folks mention some of Lafayette's tube gear in vintage audio forums from time to time. Thanks for jogging that memory.
For others in search of a good machine, bear in mind that even though this forum has been around for a little over a year and a half, I feel that the Tape Project is still in it's infancy. Doc has been really busy trying to refine the mods, applying them to the machines members have sent  to him and keeping up with demand for Repro amps and TP Seductions. I know that he's started to check out the Otari's as an alternative to Technics but it takes time. The demand for RS1500's has always been a little higher than other machines and I've seen prices on them go up and down. About 8 months ago I tracked the sales of them on eBay for a couple of months. As fate would have it, there was an absolute glut of them ( an average of 4 per week for 8 weeks) and the prices went down to and average cost of about $600 for a 1500 or 1506 (which for TP purposes are identical).  I haven't checked the prices lately but if you check the hits on this website, there's been increasing interest and the resulting competition for Technics machines. What I would suggest is when prices get crazy on eBay, look elsewhere. Try putting a wanted ad on Audiogon or Audio Circle. Check your local stereo repair guys and if they mention that they repair tape recorders in their ads, let them know what you're looking for. There's lots of owners of nice machines that have worn heads or need a little work that will have been in for an estimate but the owners don't really have a use for it so a $200 repair/adjustment just doesn't make sense for them. Some repair places have gear for sale but don't keep them there. Those can be great places to buy a machine from since they often come with a short term warranty. A good example of this is ReelProAudio which was recommended by a member here in the Service Resources forum. Also look for them on pro audio sites. AllegroSound, AudioProz and the for sale forums of GearSlutz, and TapeOp all have Otari's, Tascams, and Technics for sale sometimes. eBay always seems to reflect the worst in consumer trends with bidding wars that drive up the price way over demand.
If you're a DIYer, try tackling an alternative machine. If you look at the Bottlehead site on the Seduction mod, the early photos show exactly what I had for a while. The wires were dangling out of the headblock. 
I guess when it comes down to it, I hate to see folks depend on eBay. Sure, it can be a great resource but it's not your only resource.
steve koto
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Offline porkchop

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Thanks for your input, but...
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 07:23:58 AM »
with all due respect, nobody has been able to or chosen to answer my first two questions.  I appreciate the input on the Technics and Otaris (that does not look right when Otari is plural), but I still would like to see if the Revox or TEAC could be made to work.

Thanks,

Bob.
Robert S. Emmel

Offline steveidosound

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 10:56:12 AM »
You asked -

1.  "Can the appropriate TEAC machine (2T, 10 1/2" reels, 15ips, etc.) be modified to support the IEC equalization curve?"

I am not the expert here, in general I would like to know too, but for older tube machines like I have.

I think, but am not sure, that one would have to change various capacitor and resistor values to change the time constants in the head preamp eq circuit. Just adjusting won't make the slopes occur at the correct frequencies. There are component changes for the Seduction Bottlehead for NAB vs. IEC (vs. it's original RIAA phono) so why not the same in the Teac's (or any) solid state head preamp. Anything is possible as far as a redesign of the head preamp eq circuit, but is it easy? Do I know actual R/C values and what to replace???? No.

If it IS just a mater of adjustment, or this is true of some designs, I would like to know too.


2.  "Can either the Revox or TEAC machine be modified to utilize the Bottlehead electronics?"

I gather that it has to do somewhat with head impedance. The Technics and Otari are similar and that is what the circuits in the Bottlehead have been designed for. Perhaps the (some?) Teac heads are also close. Revox - I have no idea, except as tape head and electronics technology progressed from tube to solid state, head impedances (inductance?), in general, dropped. So, the typical Revox is more of the right era, but European design. Don't forget some Revox machines have CCIR eq which is what is needed out of the box.

As far as getting the wiring out to the external preamp, again, anything is possible but as with the Technics some methodology has to be developed to not have crude wires springing from your head block.
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline Ben

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 12:33:50 PM »

2.  "Can either the Revox or TEAC machine be modified to utilize the Bottlehead electronics?"

Well looking at USED Revox A-77's prices here
http://buy0.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?misccass&1&ctg&st1
in the $300 range, I expect B-77's would be about the same ballpark.
Under the "Is this cats meyow" there is some information
about B77's decks. I don't think it would be hard, just digging the
schematics if you have that desire. I don't think you could lose
trying to mod a Revox machine with the low prices compared to
studio product.

Set 45,Open baffle speakers,Otari 5050,,Pioneer DV-79AVi DVD/CD/SCAD player

Offline ironbut

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 08:35:27 PM »
1.  Can the appropriate TEAC machine (2T, 10 1/2" reels, 15ips, etc.) be modified to support the IEC equalization curve?
2.  Can either the Revox or TEAC machine be modified to utilize the Bottlehead electronics?
3.  Would I be losing that much fidelity by using either the Revox or TEAC as compared to the Technics machines when playing TTP tapes?
4.  Should I not even consider using a Revox or TEAC machine and just suck it up and pay the exhorbitant freight for a Technics?

That should just about cover it for now.  I eagerly await your responses.

Thanks,

Bob.

Hi Bob, sorry I forgot to answer your questions. So here goes;
Any reel to reel should be able to be converted from NAB to IEC. Certainly, some will be easier than others. There would not be a way to do this with adjustment of the eq circuit because NAB has high and low frequency boost on playback and IEC only has high frequency boost. If you'd like to read more about these eq curves, check out the link to MRL Tape Labs. Jay McKnight's site is one of the single most informative sources for everything about tape. It can be a little technical, but as you learn more and more about these machines and tape, the easier it will be to understand the articles there.http://home.comcast.net/~mrltapes/
If you go to the Bottlehead site and read the page concerning the conversion of the Seduction phono stage to a tape head amp, you'll notice that Doc has outlined the different resistor values for an old Ampex and a Technics. These different values aren't really for the machines themselves, but the heads they use. The different outputs of the heads determine the components in the eq circuits. Which brings us to another point. When you buy a machine, many times they will need either relapping (resurfacing) of the heads or replacement. There are members here who have replaced the stock Technics heads with heads from another company (Tascam). There's no reason that this can't be done as long as the new heads will fit (and isn't a wildly different design). You can even get higher output heads to offset the lower gain that tubes often bring. In audiophile dollars, these stock heads can be bought and installed for cheap.
So, when using these external playback amps, all the machine itself is used for is a tape transport. Herein lies the potential of the Technics isoloop. It's a consumer friendly version of the old 3M M79. If you read further on Jay's web site, he has articles on tape flutter as does Dan Manquen.http://home.flash.net/%7Emrltapes/equaliz.html
And even though there's more to good tape handling (sonics wise), reading about flutter will give you a pretty good idea of how little it takes to distort the sound on tape.
So, how much difference is there between the Technics and the others will depend a lot on condition. A perfectly adjusted Teac will probably sound better than a badly running Technics.
Regarding the heads to outboard tape amp. I gave the example of the wires hanging out of the headblock to illustrate that there is no real reason that those wires could be run through the machine and out the back. Careful routing will be required and some trial and error to avoid picking up noise from the motors and transformer (so good shielding is a good idea).
These tapes are so far ahead of anything that you likely, listened to before, that even on an old clunker, they're gonna knock you socks off. But putting a $200 tape on a machine that isn't running properly (after forgoing a $250 adjustment and lube) is asking for it.
IMHO there's no reason that the top of the line Teac, Tascam, Sony can't keep you happy for a while (after all, Mapleshade records does their recording on a modded Sony TC 880-2).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 10:52:43 AM by ironbut »
steve koto
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Offline classicrecordings

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 07:34:16 PM »
I have many 7.5ips Angel, EMI & UK Columbia tapes with CCIR EQ which I understand is IEC.  But I have read that IEC and NAB EQ's are the same at 7.5 ips.  Is this correct? 

David
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 07:41:32 PM by classicrecordings »
David Stangret
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Offline astrotoy

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Re: Newby, here, with a few questions...
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2009, 11:15:17 PM »
Hi Bob, have you looked under the Tape Machines section of the Forum. The sticky at the top of the Reel to Reel Machines section gives a listing of machines that are TP compatible out of the box. There are several Teac/Tascams listed as well as a Revox. That might be a good place to start. You can get something inexpensive used and then save your pennies for a modifed machine with Bottlehead electronics.  Good luck and welcome.  Larry
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