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Author Topic: General Questions  (Read 6326 times)

Offline zeppelin

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General Questions
« on: December 07, 2008, 08:02:38 AM »
Hello,

I just found out about your project which I find very intesting. My only question(s) relate to your choice of equipment. As far as standards are concerned (15ips, half track, IEC), I am happy with your choice. More so, I believe your pricing scheme seems to be fair. However, is there anything concerning the production path that prevents me from using your tapes on standard equipment? In my case it would be a Revox A700. The fact that you offer/recommend a Technics RS-1500 with a tube amp, I guess, goes back to your preferences and recommendations. Personally, I would not grade the Technics as (semi-)professional. Entering a tube amp into the loop adds character to the sound, i.e. it will always manipulate the sound properties. What I am looking for is a plain as possible copy of the master tape.

Regards,

Ulf (writing from Germany)

Offline ironbut

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2008, 11:11:53 AM »
Welcome to the forum Ulf. If your 700 the standards you've mentioned, I think you'll find the production values of the tapes exactly as you requested in your last sentence. When I subscribed to the series I was familiar with the work of Paul Stubblebine from his mastering work for labels such as Mobile Fidelity. He's responsible for duplicating the master tapes and is about as purist as you're likely to find. Here's an explanation of the process from the artwork supplied with each tape;
"Tape Project albums always start with the original analog session tapes, no copies or dubs. From these we make our running masters on one inch two track analog. The one inch running masters are copied in real time directly to a bank of Ampex ATR-100 recorders." "The Tape Project has chosen to use the Stubb-U Sonic principles (Extremism in the pursuit of music is no vice) in all aspects of our production process. We have confirmed that this all-analog approach retains more of the texture, more of the color, more of the flavor crystals, delivering to our listeners the maximum coboy boogie-woogie in these high tech times we're livin' in."
In other words, everything has been done, from the selection of the master (ones that are deemed too noisy and would require editing to make a good tape may make the release un-usable) to the supplying of alignment tapes made on the same machines that the production tapes are made on to assure exact conformity, has been done to make these tapes the final word for the albums that are chosen.
Hope this helps.
steve koto
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Offline docb

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2008, 12:13:27 PM »
"Entering a tube amp into the loop adds character to the sound, i.e. it will always manipulate the sound properties."

I usually caution folks against the use of sweeping generalities in this high end audio business, as I have been shown to be wrong with my own too many times. To the contrary I find that a good tube preamp without global negative feedback will often bring out more subtle information from the original recording, and that the solid state playback electronics on pretty much any tape recorder hold it back. I would be happy to demonstrate this to anyone via playback on my Nagra T through the stock solid state electronics vs. through our Tube Repro amp. The same difference can be heard on Paul's Studer A80 when we use our tube repro amp. The coloration of the solid state electronics is plainly audible.

As regards your not considering the Technics a professional deck, I would agree. I would also put the A700 and any other Revox in that group. Bear in mind that we are talking about a modified Technics transport and about the use of these as home playback units, not professional recording machines. In this role they are very satisfying with our (and any other) tapes. If the very best transport quality is a concern, you would do best to go past the Revox and consider acquiring a studio machine like an Ampex ATR, Studer, Scully, Nagra, etc. I my experience the jump in transport quality there will be bigger than any differences between stock Technics, Revox, Otari, Tascam or other "prosumer" transports.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline zeppelin

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 03:18:09 AM »
Thanks gentlemen, for your replies,

I will give the subject some more consideration now. Technically, I still not concur with some of the views expressed (but that's me).

1.) Tube amps. Of course tube amps will provide better sound. But the effect is more psychological than anything else (in my view), especially if there is no negative feedback used. Tubes have a softer, squared cut-off point compared to solid-states. The result is the production of even harmonics. Solid state circuits have hard cut-offs and will produce both even and odd harmonics. While even harmonics sound rather pleasant to the human ear, odd harmonics are considered a "true" distortion. That is why most guitarists use tube amps as the over-drive sounds harmonic (Jimi Hendrix would sound awful over a solid-state). Or think of the 12-string guitar. Effectively the same effect. The higher strings are tuned to the 2nd harmonic, i.e. one octave higher.
2.) The isolated loop of the Technics recorders is a self-contradiction. The objective is to achieve a stable tape transport across the heads, i.e. no path deviation, no vibration and flutter. So far okay. In a normal double capstan, the approach is to achieve tension between the capstans. Various ways are known to achieve this. Usually, you allow for slack on the left hand side (for example by using a smoother capstan surface or less pressure of the roller). However, you should always make sure that the right capstan determines, or better, dictates the speed. The winding motors only maintain constant tension, but do not create further slack. The Technics only uses a single capstan but two pinch rollers. If you force a tape loop, this loop disappears quickly. How, if "both" capstans run at exactly the same speed? The answer must be either the re- or the winding motor that forces some slack and helps to avoid loops. My assumption would be an unnecessary level of slack and tape tension to make the system work.

Those were my five cents....

Cheers,

Ulf

Offline docb

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 11:28:10 AM »
To #1 "Of course tube amps will provide better sound."

Yes, I agree. That has been my experience. I will suggest that we agree to disagree about the technical reasons, because I think the subject is quite a bit more deep than what we have discussed here.

To #2

We too puzzled over the whole thing when we started playing with the Technics. I'm not sure about describing the transport in terms of slack, as far as I know we are talking about a positive tension differential. There is indeed a different tension between the supply reel and the supply side pinch roller and the takeup reel and the takeup side pinch roller, about 10g of positive differential (65g vs 75g) that pulls the tape against the reversing idler and thus against the heads - and may cause a little slip by necessity?  It would seem that would have to be the case, but I think I would need to sit down and draw some diagrams and crunch some numbers to feel I really had a handle on the dynamics of the system. Is this better or worse than other setups? Rather like turntables, different types of tape drive designs give different sounds because of the emphasis on controlling different issues - wow, flutter, scrape flutter, startup torque, etc. So I think you have to look at the trade offs and choose your poison according to what sounds best to you, or perhaps what sounds the least bad. I would say that the Technics as we mod it is very good in the area of speed stability, but it may not have the last bit of transient punch that some higher end machines have. In comparison, an Otari that we have modded has more of that transient snap, but it's more difficult to get it to pull tape as steadily as a Technics. And once again I will suggest that there are transports that sound better than either of these or a Revox or a Tascam or any of the other mid level decks, but cost a heck of a lot more and may require higher maintenance.

The bottom line here is that we are not trying to shove anything up anyone's nose. If you want to listen to tape on a Revox - the most important thing is clear - you are a tapehead! Thus, you are awesome!
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline zeppelin

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Re: General Questions
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 12:37:06 PM »
Yes Dan,

I think you hit the point by calling me a tapehead. The fascination started over 30 years ago and never disappeared. Nothing more convincing than the fat sound of a good tape recorder and the calming view of the mechanics in motion.

Cheers,

Ulf