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Author Topic: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!  (Read 8452 times)

Offline reelnut

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How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« on: December 12, 2008, 02:08:30 PM »
I have several tapes which:
   A- Do not squeak
   B- Do not deposit goo or excessive oxide
   C- Fall off of the reel in a perfect tangent (if you were to unwind the reel by hand)
   D- Are older tapes and have been cleaned with Pelon as a precaution

Yet these tapes won't rewind like new tapes. When rewinding before playback they slow down the reel motors, especially near the end, as though something were dragging.

Does anyone know what's goin' on here?
John Hanek (dedicated amateur)- A810, X2000R, X1000R, A3440, GX636. Played thru Yamaha CX1, MX1, YST-SW150 (2), S55 (2).

Offline ironbut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 07:34:22 PM »
Hi John, do you know what kind of tape it is? (some Agfa had binder breakdown but the symptoms are different.)
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline reelnut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2008, 06:37:31 AM »
Thanks Steve-
Yeah, it is Scotch 808. Can old tape get so stiff that it just is hard to rewind? I don't know anyhtning about 808. Do you know if it's similar to 226?
John Hanek (dedicated amateur)- A810, X2000R, X1000R, A3440, GX636. Played thru Yamaha CX1, MX1, YST-SW150 (2), S55 (2).

Offline ironbut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2008, 11:40:54 AM »
3M 808 began production in 1986. It was backcoated and used the same binder as 217, 219, 226, and 227. It has a polyester backing and is one of the 3M tapes that are subject to classic SSS. 3M 226, 227, 806, 807, 808, and 809 are all know to have problems with sticky shed.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline reelnut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2008, 11:57:34 AM »
Steve-
It must be SSS, but it bothers me that the tapes appear fine, except for the fact they don't rewind rapidly, as a tape should! There's got to be some resistance there somewhere, whether it's apparent or not! Thanx for the info on the 3M!
John Hanek (dedicated amateur)- A810, X2000R, X1000R, A3440, GX636. Played thru Yamaha CX1, MX1, YST-SW150 (2), S55 (2).

Offline ironbut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2008, 01:23:52 PM »
I suspect that the heat produced from the guides/heads are momentarily making the tape a bit sticky. Heat and moisture are the main ingredients to making the binders stick. The tape is so thin that by the time you can stop the machine and examine it, it will have cooled off (this is just my best guess). Anyway, depending on the amount of torque the reel motors are able to produce, it probably doesn't take a whole lot to slow them down gradually. I'd get out a magnifier of some type and get in there and examine the corners of the guides. If the tape isn't squealing but it is dragging, there may be sticky deposits just in the corners since deposits on the heads or center of the guides will make the tape squeal. Nasty stuff to get off too. Something like naphta is good for it (it's usually kinda tarry).
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline reelnut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2008, 02:17:11 PM »
Steve-
Thanks very much for those insights and good pointers. I'd assumed I have the guides clean, as I am somewhat of a fanatic when it comes to proper upkeep of a deck. I do have a nice magnifying glass. I'm going to get it out and check those cracks! I've been using Lasermedia's pinch roller and their head cleaner, available from USrecordingmedia. Incidentally, if I'm allowed to plug a product: in the 5 years I've been doing R2R that's the best stuff I've ever used! Just be aware that the head cleaner will melt plastic!
John Hanek (dedicated amateur)- A810, X2000R, X1000R, A3440, GX636. Played thru Yamaha CX1, MX1, YST-SW150 (2), S55 (2).

Offline ironbut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2008, 02:45:01 PM »
I use Lasermedia's head cleaner too. It is nasty stuff but I've never had a problem getting anything off of the tape path with it. I did make the mistake when I first bought it of not allowing it to dry completely and totally ruined a tape I liked. That headcleaner doesn't care where the oxide/goo is, it just takes it the heck off!
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline reelnut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2008, 03:44:11 PM »
I did find a small amount of material in the corners of the guides (after I got out my magnifying glass)! Removing it seems to have cured the problem. Really surprising what a difference a tiny amount of crud can make!
John Hanek (dedicated amateur)- A810, X2000R, X1000R, A3440, GX636. Played thru Yamaha CX1, MX1, YST-SW150 (2), S55 (2).

Offline astrotoy

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 05:28:30 PM »
I have solved the problem that I had a pair of masterdubs that I bought recently that had been recorded with Ampex 468 - I believe. When the first (and only) time I played the tapes, they left some very nasty deposits all over my 1506. NOt very happy- cleaned it all up with the Lasermedia cleaner - not something I would want to do regularly. With my new recording Ampex ATR-700, I decided the best option was to bake the tapes and then dub them from the Technics to the Ampex. So I followed the directions from the internet (google "baking a tape") and bought an American Brands Necco Dehydrator (from Bed Bath and Beyond) Model FD-61 for $60 (minus the 20% off coupons from BBB). The internet article recommends model FD-50, but I think that is discontinued. FD-61 is cheaper and appears to be functionally the same. As per the internet directions I baked each tape for 2 hours at 135 F, turning over every 30 minutes. I did not have bananas or apples or beef jerky in the dehydrator at the same time. When I finished - after cooling the tape for 2 hours, I rewound it, using a small dry soft sponge (the little applicators that come with the Last Tape Preservative) to contact against the tape before it entered the machine. There were a few very  small flakes of oxide that come off - nothing much - and the heads and guides were quite clean. I then made a dub, which sounds quite excellent (at 15 ips and 2 track). AFter the dub was complete and checked out, I discarded the original tape. I then repeated the process with the second reel. I only did one reel at a time in the dehydrator.  The $50 investment looks like it has saved the music on the tapes and is supposed to make some really good beef jerky. 

Larry
Larry Toy CharterMember-BHReproTechnics1506/Akai747dbx/OtariMX5050B3-ClassicalVinylFreak-15Krecs-VPIHRXRimDrv-LyraSkala-HelikonMono-HerronVTSP3A/BHPhonoPre-PacificMicrosonics Model2 - Pyramix&MykerinosCard-OppoNE-Proceed AVP2+6/CVP2-CJ MET1-Cary 2A3SE-AvantgardeDuos-3Solos-VelodyneDD18Sub

Offline astrotoy

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 05:55:18 PM »
I have solved the problem that I had a pair of masterdubs that I bought recently that had been recorded with Ampex 468 - I believe. When the first (and only) time I played the tapes, they left some very nasty deposits all over my 1506. NOt very happy- cleaned it all up with the Lasermedia cleaner - not something I would want to do regularly. With my new recording Ampex ATR-700, I decided the best option was to bake the tapes and then dub them from the Technics to the Ampex. So I followed the directions from the internet (google "baking a tape") and bought an American Brands Necco Dehydrator (from Bed Bath and Beyond) Model FD-61 for $60 (minus the 20% off coupons from BBB). The internet article recommends model FD-50, but I think that is discontinued. FD-61 is cheaper and appears to be functionally the same. As per the internet directions I baked each tape for 2 hours at 135 F, turning over every 30 minutes. I did not have bananas or apples or beef jerky in the dehydrator at the same time. When I finished - after cooling the tape for 2 hours, I rewound it, using a small dry soft sponge (the little applicators that come with the Last Tape Preservative) to contact against the tape before it entered the machine. There were a few very  small flakes of oxide that come off - nothing much - and the heads and guides were quite clean. I then made a dub, which sounds quite excellent (at 15 ips and 2 track). AFter the dub was complete and checked out, I discarded the original tape. I then repeated the process with the second reel. I only did one reel at a time in the dehydrator.  The $50 investment looks like it has saved the music on the tapes and is supposed to make some really good beef jerky. 

Larry

Sorry the brand is Nsco by American Harvest. - Can't do things by memory anymore.  Larry
Larry Toy CharterMember-BHReproTechnics1506/Akai747dbx/OtariMX5050B3-ClassicalVinylFreak-15Krecs-VPIHRXRimDrv-LyraSkala-HelikonMono-HerronVTSP3A/BHPhonoPre-PacificMicrosonics Model2 - Pyramix&MykerinosCard-OppoNE-Proceed AVP2+6/CVP2-CJ MET1-Cary 2A3SE-AvantgardeDuos-3Solos-VelodyneDD18Sub

Offline astrotoy

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 06:44:58 PM »
I have solved the problem that I had a pair of masterdubs that I bought recently that had been recorded with Ampex 468 - I believe. When the first (and only) time I played the tapes, they left some very nasty deposits all over my 1506. NOt very happy- cleaned it all up with the Lasermedia cleaner - not something I would want to do regularly. With my new recording Ampex ATR-700, I decided the best option was to bake the tapes and then dub them from the Technics to the Ampex. So I followed the directions from the internet (google "baking a tape") and bought an American Brands Necco Dehydrator (from Bed Bath and Beyond) Model FD-61 for $60 (minus the 20% off coupons from BBB). The internet article recommends model FD-50, but I think that is discontinued. FD-61 is cheaper and appears to be functionally the same. As per the internet directions I baked each tape for 2 hours at 135 F, turning over every 30 minutes. I did not have bananas or apples or beef jerky in the dehydrator at the same time. When I finished - after cooling the tape for 2 hours, I rewound it, using a small dry soft sponge (the little applicators that come with the Last Tape Preservative) to contact against the tape before it entered the machine. There were a few very  small flakes of oxide that come off - nothing much - and the heads and guides were quite clean. I then made a dub, which sounds quite excellent (at 15 ips and 2 track). AFter the dub was complete and checked out, I discarded the original tape. I then repeated the process with the second reel. I only did one reel at a time in the dehydrator.  The $50 investment looks like it has saved the music on the tapes and is supposed to make some really good beef jerky. 

Sorry again - the sticky tape was Ampex 456.   Larry




Larry

Sorry the brand is Nsco by American Harvest. - Can't do things by memory anymore.  Larry
Larry Toy CharterMember-BHReproTechnics1506/Akai747dbx/OtariMX5050B3-ClassicalVinylFreak-15Krecs-VPIHRXRimDrv-LyraSkala-HelikonMono-HerronVTSP3A/BHPhonoPre-PacificMicrosonics Model2 - Pyramix&MykerinosCard-OppoNE-Proceed AVP2+6/CVP2-CJ MET1-Cary 2A3SE-AvantgardeDuos-3Solos-VelodyneDD18Sub

Offline reelnut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2009, 09:41:26 AM »
Hi Larry-

I have a feeling that the dehydrator does a really great job of baking tapes, due to the forced airflow. Wish I had one.

But the reason I'm writing this is to say I ended up doing what you did- baking the tapes. I had never done it before and just used my electric oven. I left the tapes in the oven for 12 hrs, or so. I don't think the time is too critical as long as you leave 'em in at least 8 hrs when using a conventional oven. Temp pretty much stayed between 120 and 135 during the process. After letting them cool for about 6 hrs in the oven with door cracked I tried them out and they performed just as nicely as a new tape would. Needless to say, I was very pleased with the results.

The point I'm actually trying to make is this: I did the baking on Dec 1, 2008 and wasn't too optimistic that it would last for very long. I actually just pulled one of the tapes out yesterday to try it out and it still performed exactly the way it did in Dec, and here it is now the middle of Feb. It will be interesting to see how long they last before developing problems again.
John Hanek (dedicated amateur)- A810, X2000R, X1000R, A3440, GX636. Played thru Yamaha CX1, MX1, YST-SW150 (2), S55 (2).

Offline ironbut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2009, 11:39:21 AM »
Excellent you guys! You might get yourself some silica gel packs (do you save those things?) and keep them in the box with the tape. If you store the box inside of a plastic bag of some sort, that should extend the baking results for quite a while.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline reelnut

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Re: How 'Bout Sticky Shed!
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2009, 09:31:18 AM »
Steve-

No, I don't save 'em, but have been meaning to get some of those things. I agree, it seems like it'd go a long ways toward keeping the tape dry. I keep my tape inside plastic bags which are inside the box. Seems like a packet in the bag with the tape would do a great job. I did a search for silica gel packs a while back and came up with this link that looks like it'd be a great place to buy from. They have packets of every imaginable size and they are inexpensive: http://silicagelpackets.com.

It is my understanding that silica gel is re-usable. If one bakes it in the oven it drives out the moisture and recharges the gel to a new condition again. There is also a blue gel which turns a violet, then blue when it's full of moisture. If a guy could get some of the blue stuff in a bag that you could see through well enough to observe the color, that would really be the "ticket", wouldn't it?
John Hanek (dedicated amateur)- A810, X2000R, X1000R, A3440, GX636. Played thru Yamaha CX1, MX1, YST-SW150 (2), S55 (2).