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Author Topic: The Audio Gods Speak......?  (Read 11330 times)

ceved

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The Audio Gods Speak......?
« on: December 14, 2008, 09:41:54 AM »
For those of you waiting for rtr to be embraced by the mainstream print audio press as the new vanguard of 'perfect sound forever', the wait appears to have just gotten a bit/lot longer at least from Robert Harley and his TAS.

Mr. Harley in an article extolling the virtues of all things digital; DACs/music servers/HRx media (from Reference Recordings) said this about tape....."even real-time copies of analog tapes suffer from generation loss.'

That's it folks.  In one dismissive phrase in an article which spans 4 pages of text and 4 pages of advertising the voice of TAS has given us the the roadsign for the future and it is not us.

The article begins on page 78 of the magazine's 01/09 edition, and for those of us with an interest/passion for rtr tape ends at the conclusion of the first paragraph.
The good news is, think of all the time you will save not reading the rest of the article unless you have an interest in the subject; which I do. 

Is RH paid by the word?

For those who might be thinking that nostalgia isn't what it used to be this may seem like doom and gloom.
However I am old enough and have been an avid music listener long enough to know that you aren't dead until you stop breathing and having said that there still is a lot of life left in all things analog including tape.

Since this is traditionally the season of good cheer consider that if TP had an advertising budget, I feel certain that TAS and Stereophile would be able to find it in their hearts to do a nice little article (not an off hand remark in some sidebar) on the novel idea of adding an rtr source to you audio system. 
How cute it looks. 
Does it always spin like that?
Can you make it go faster?
Does it matter if you lay it down to play?  My yes, it deepens the soundstage; don't you know!
Yeah; insightful stuff like that.

Could it be that generational loss is not as important as loss of advertising revenue real or potential from current/future advertisers?

Gee I hope my TAS subscription doesn't get cancelled by an irate editor; it usually works the other way around.

 



« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 08:43:37 PM by ceved »

Offline xcortes

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2008, 10:42:25 AM »
Luckily Charles the world is different these days than what it was before. I've never read, much less purchased, a single issue of TAS, Stereophile or they kind. There's a much more powerful syetem in place set up by the internet. Through the internet you can have much more varied opinions and a wider view of the world. Believe me, I did not need TAS to discover SET amps, horn speakers, open reel tapes or even high resolution digital servers  and HRx media (which is something I may try soon). 
Xavier Cortes

Offline Ben

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2008, 11:22:23 AM »
I allways thought they spoke for the LATEST BUY ME trend...
What about compression losses (compressed audio) and lost bits with digital recordings [1]... I don't hear much talk on that.
I beleave that advances in full range speakers ~60hz to 20Khz is what is bringing
back tube audio, and that fact you have the TTP to give you a better source.
[1] What about distortion with your audio being crunched for your muilti-channel
sound.
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Offline ironbut

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2008, 12:19:56 PM »
I haven't read the article but, just like always, the proof's in the listening. I've been experimenting around with hi rez downloads for a while now and while it's clearly superior to the sound I get from the best CD's and in most instances, better sounding than SACD's , the 96/24 files that I've got can't hold a candle to the Tape Project tapes. In fact, if these titles were available on 180 gm vinyl, I'd probably prefer that. The best sounding downloads are the ones that have been created with hi rez files in mind from the get go. The Linn Records flac files for example gets closer to good vinyl than any other digital IMHO. But of course, all these flac files aren't created equal. Some sound significantly better than others. The most recent Linn recordings sound much better than their earlier releases. The same goes for all the other download sites.
The better sounding downloads are all from smaller labels just like the Tape Project. And just like most of the earlier audiophile vinyl labels, you won't find the artists that you want. And beware of redbook cd's that have simply been upsampled. They don't sound much, if any better than a decent cd. But these downloads are worth trying out (if you have a nice DAC capable of 96/24).
I don't think that any reviewer would say that any of these downloads (which are better than any digital disk I've heard,.. BTW the RR hi rez disks are data disks and the same as a download would be) are even in the same ballpark as the Tape Project tapes if they've heard them (let alone the fact that we're getting Bill Evans, Sonny Rollins, David Oistrakh etc...).
Analog media always has another thing going for it. It was developed at a time when folks didn't {think they} know all the things that make a recording sound real. So analog just kept on evolving as the decades passed. With digital, there's a ceiling on the nuances that the math found worth saving in the original recording. With analog, there can be advances in what is pulled off the media which may reveal more and more of the subtle stuff that makes it sound real. I don't mean to discount the fine work that Flux Magnetics has done to make the extended response head the best in the business, but if there's demand, I'm sure there's even more to be had off of these tapes.
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ceved

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2008, 08:53:45 PM »
Actually this rant was the result of a thread some time back in which a number of poster's bemoaned the lack of exposure that rtr and TP in particular were getting from the two most widely recognized/read print mags for Hi Fi.
My observation is watch what you wish for cause see what you sometimes get.

Offline astrotoy

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 02:54:53 AM »
I read RH's article about the Reference Recording HRx format music. What I found most interesting was some of the language that RH used for the HRx was very similar to the experience I have had and written in TPF about the tapes that have been issued. Particularly the "spatial and timbral detail" and the "ease and grace."  Unfortunately, the source material for HRx is going to be quite limited at the highest resolution (176.4kHz/24 bit) if it was or will be originally recorded that way. We will not have the vast catalogue of great analogue tapes that the TP has access to and those great performances of the past. However, by coincidence, there are at least two points of comparison. THe RR Exotic Dances has been released on HRx and the Arnold Overtures is scheduled for release. So if someone who has the TP tapes also gets an HRx system, there can be a direct comparison of the two. It would be very interesting to hear a comparison of an end user version of Keith Johnson's analogue system and his digital system, side by side. Larry
Larry Toy CharterMember-BHReproTechnics1506/Akai747dbx/OtariMX5050B3-ClassicalVinylFreak-15Krecs-VPIHRXRimDrv-LyraSkala-HelikonMono-HerronVTSP3A/BHPhonoPre-PacificMicrosonics Model2 - Pyramix&MykerinosCard-OppoNE-Proceed AVP2+6/CVP2-CJ MET1-Cary 2A3SE-AvantgardeDuos-3Solos-VelodyneDD18Sub

Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 10:14:02 AM »
I read RH's article about the Reference Recording HRx format music. What I found most interesting was some of the language that RH used for the HRx was very similar to the experience I have had and written in TPF about the tapes that have been issued. Particularly the "spatial and timbral detail" and the "ease and grace."  Unfortunately, the source material for HRx is going to be quite limited at the highest resolution (176.4kHz/24 bit) if it was or will be originally recorded that way. We will not have the vast catalogue of great analogue tapes that the TP has access to and those great performances of the past. However, by coincidence, there are at least two points of comparison. THe RR Exotic Dances has been released on HRx and the Arnold Overtures is scheduled for release. So if someone who has the TP tapes also gets an HRx system, there can be a direct comparison of the two. It would be very interesting to hear a comparison of an end user version of Keith Johnson's analogue system and his digital system, side by side. Larry

I plan on doing just what you say as I have the ability to compare them (see here):
http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php/topic,643.0.html

All I need now is my Exotic Dances TP tape and I'm ready to go.  I can compare this then to the Exotic dances HRx release.  The HRx releases sound EXACTLY as RH said above, and I would also use the terms "exceptionally smooth and silky".  They sound as close to the TP tapes of anything I have heard so far--SACD/DVD-A/LP @ 45/Blu Ray Audio/ etc.  The Dynamics are there in spades---just like the TP releases!!  I can't wait to compare them, though I THINK I know which one will "win"  ;)

Joel
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 10:24:39 AM »
Quote
Mr. Harley in an article extolling the virtues of all things digital; DACs/music servers/HRx media (from Reference Recordings) said this about tape....."even real-time copies of analog tapes suffer from generation loss.'

That's it folks.  In one dismissive phrase in an article which spans 4 pages of text and 4 pages of advertising the voice of TAS has given us the the roadsign for the future and it is not us.

Well, I don't think what he says is anything we don't already know.  BUT---doesn't ANY transfer from ANYTHING also going to suffer a "generational loss"?  To say that is just applying to open reel tape is a load of crap!  The transfer from say a 1" master tape of anything is going to suffer a small "loss" whether transferred to another tape, an LP, an SACD, whatever.  The only way you would not have ANY loss (at least that a consumer could get) is if something was recorded in pure digital and then downloaded directly to a music server or say the HRx stuff.  Even then, now you are relying on the music server DAC, or HRx data disc and its conversion to your PC to not have ANY loss (??) eventually spitting it out to your system.  In other words--not likely and there will be a "loss" somewhere anyhow.  No?

Hopefully those reading the article are smart enough to know this?

TAS promised in September of LAST YEAR to do an open reel shootout versus the other formats.  I find it odd that they are now (at least RH) taking a pot shot at it!

Joel
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Joel Kozlowski

Offline Ben

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 01:22:16 PM »
With $1K equipment stands out there to review and $100 power cords,
I guess they have no $ to buy good media, with good music.
Also I thought reviews nowdays was a form of hidden advertising...
We send you the product to evaluate, and you write a review how our product is
better than something else...
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Offline joeljoel1947

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Cords.
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2008, 09:01:38 PM »
$100 power cords???  No such thing exists to an "audiophile" who reads TAS except the PS Audio Power Punch power cord and the Audioquest NRG-1.  I should know, I have a few of both of them.

  $100 for a power cord is considered scum of the earth in the world of "audiophile accepted" power cords!!  A "good" one is typically in the $500-2k range for a meter!  See here:

http://www.thecableco.com/prodListing.php?cat=18
;)
Regards,
Joel Kozlowski

Offline Ben

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 09:40:24 PM »
Runs and hides his head under a brown paper ...
I use the old power cords that came  from $5 VGA displays ...
10  ? RCA connectors ... $10 Interconnects (each) ...
I figure they had none of this high priced Censored and they still
seem to have made better audio recordings in the late 1950's and
early 1960's.

PS. I got a bunch of Bananas err R2R pre-recorded tapes and
they say (c) 1963 on the box ... must have been a good year for music.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:47:59 PM by Ben »
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Offline Ben

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 09:43:16 PM »
I save my Banana's only for Open reel music ... :)
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Offline astrotoy

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2008, 09:44:11 PM »
Joel, thanks for reminding me of the previous thread. I hadn't taken a close look at it, since it was about digital stuff!  Harley mentions the Lynx card that Doc talked about. Also Harley raved about the new Berkeley DAC that decodes the 176/24 material. Is it true that most DACs don't decode that high?  The other issue is storage. With the solid state drive there isn't a lot of storage, given how memory hungry the 176/24 files are. I recently purchased an external 2TB HD that is pretty quiet. It is a Western Digital that can be hooked directly to a computer through a USB port or to a network. It was only about $500. That would seem to have enough storage for quite a few albums.  Any thoughts if one wants to move into this arena for less than the $9K for computer and DAC that he is talking about. Obviously, I don't want to go to a sound quality that doesn't take advantage of all those bits. Larry
Larry Toy CharterMember-BHReproTechnics1506/Akai747dbx/OtariMX5050B3-ClassicalVinylFreak-15Krecs-VPIHRXRimDrv-LyraSkala-HelikonMono-HerronVTSP3A/BHPhonoPre-PacificMicrosonics Model2 - Pyramix&MykerinosCard-OppoNE-Proceed AVP2+6/CVP2-CJ MET1-Cary 2A3SE-AvantgardeDuos-3Solos-VelodyneDD18Sub

Offline docb

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2008, 10:39:37 PM »
Well, I got two comments.

First, why does everyone want a shoot out? What's wrong with having digital and analog sources in your system? We have never tried to push The Tape Project as the only and best kind of music source to listen to, just as one that we love and would like to share with folks.

Second, I suspect that TAS was maybe figuring we would park a machine, electronics and tapes with them for an extended stay as a lot of manufacturers do. As you guys who are waiting for your tapes know, we are plenty busy keeping up with orders right now. It could be a while before we can free up the resources to loan out a machine and tapes for review.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
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Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline joeljoel1947

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Re: The Audio Gods Speak......?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 10:21:41 AM »
Quote
Well, I got two comments.

First, why does everyone want a shoot out? What's wrong with having digital and analog sources in your system? We have never tried to push The Tape Project as the only and best kind of music source to listen to, just as one that we love and would like to share with folks.

Second, I suspect that TAS was maybe figuring we would park a machine, electronics and tapes with them for an extended stay as a lot of manufacturers do. As you guys who are waiting for your tapes know, we are plenty busy keeping up with orders right now. It could be a while before we can free up the resources to loan out a machine and tapes for review.

Well, I think the answer to the first question is pretty simple:  its human nature to want to compare things to find out which is "better".  Especially for audiophiles (cable a vs. cable b/dac a versus dac b/cd vs. lp/pressing of lp a vs. pressing of LP b etc.).  I'm not saying its right or wrong, but its just what we do.  The debate on "analog versus digital" has been brewing since the inception of cd, and I don't see the debate EVER ending with a clear "winner".  It's fun to debate and fun to compare the very best out there though, like the Exotic Dances example before us.  Certainly such a comparison will not declare a "winner" or make any kind of statement in the debate of analog versus digital.  All it will really say is that at that performance, what captured the event better and sounded better---Prof. Johnsons analog or digital setup.

I have heard first hand a piano/cello professional performance captured in 24/192 digital in one take and then direct to high speed open reel in the next take.  Comparing the "masters" against one another (playing back in real time the high resolution digital to the direct to reel recording) was very interesting and I can tell you in no uncertain terms the completely analog reel master sounded superior.  Thats PERSONALLY all I needed to know on the subject of "analog versus digital".

Of course I agree with you Doc that anyone serious about music MUST have both analog and digital setups in their systems.  The bottom line is that certain performances, certain material is available in either one format OR the other.  Relying solely on just TP tapes, or just 45 rpm LP's or just SACD's would be very difficult to do as you would run out of musical content of your liking VERY quickly! If you don't have both analog and digital, you're missing out on something (or you are simply buying on sound quality alone)!

As for TAS, I guess their loss is our gain.  It would have been neat to see a writeup though, to give open reel more "exposure" and that was all I was hoping that would happen.  The more exposure it gets, the better for us all!!

Joel

Regards,
Joel Kozlowski