TP-028, Nat Adderley's Work Song is now available

Author Topic: 2nd series titles  (Read 30043 times)

Offline Ben

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2009, 11:58:21 AM »
Cough Cough !!! sacd , ipods  what next! Cough! Cough!
Oh ya! Full range mini speakers. Yet I rarely hear about music
itself for just what is being produced new other than loud rap or rock
or people who just can't sing with out effect songs. The general public
is loosing the feel for what music is about, and that seems bad.
I hope the remaining titles will be some newer selections so more you
have more general interest.

PS: the only person who can't sing (my viewpoint) should be on a record
is Bob Dylan.


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Offline ironbut

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2009, 12:29:18 PM »
I have to agree with you guys regarding being warned well ahead of time of an impending price increase. Not that it would've made much of a difference in any practical way, but it was a shock to see it on the order page. And while personally, I've been very happy with the choices of releases, I think it would be nice to have at least one hard rock album among the final four in the new series. Even though some of the folks that I've demoed these tapes for have said that these tapes sound so good that even though it's not the kind of music that they normally listen to that they'd listen them anyway, there are those who have invested in the first series who still haven't seen a tape that is in their favorite genre.
A while back, in a discussion on the Suggestions forum, a member who's been involved with recording, did make the very good point that many of the rock/pop releases were (and still are) made to a very low standard. As a result, the masters aren't up to the Tape Projects standard. I've been disappointed many times when I've bought reissued vinyl of a favorite album from the 60's-80's. I do think it would be great if we could get a classic rock album like " Gimme Shelter"  and show some appreciation to those early adopters who've stuck it out with us Jazz/Classical nuts.
steve koto
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Offline john

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2009, 01:15:22 PM »
Gimme Shelter would be nice, i was thinking more along the lines of singers like, Joan Armatrading, Joni Mitchell, Eva Cassidy, etc singers that are hard to pigeon hole into any one particular genre. A quick look through the suggestion post's shows that there are many others that have made excellent albums, recorded to a very high standard. Opera anyone??
John Taylor

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Offline PJ

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2009, 01:45:04 PM »
Hi guys. I don't usually follow this sub-forum, and just now read the whole thread, including the cost concerns. I suppose the big guns will say something eventually (after they recover from CES!) but I'll offer a bit of perspective.

I am not one of the principals, but I did participate in the early discussions, in the summer of 2006. As I recall, pricing had to be set around that time, as we were looking at announcing the project at the Fall AES or Janualy 2007 CES. This was long before actual costs could be known, but everyone was well aware that once a price was announced, it would pretty much have to remain fixed throughout the first series. It was a long and difficult effort. I have an initial spreadsheet from some of those discussions, showing estimated capital costs to get the first four albums produced - figuring that we needed at least that much to get started, and hoping that subscriptions would continue to come in and finance the rest of the project. I don't know the current costs, but I do know some of our assumptions at that time were much lower than the actual cost. For example, we budgeted $4000 to set up and refurbish the four ATR recorders; I don't think any one of them cost that little in the end. I know that the demo machines (those brought to the shows like CES) cost more than twice the original estimates.

Like I said, I'm not a principal, so I don't really know how close the project is to breaking even. But I do know that nobody is getting rich off of this!
Paul Joppa
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Offline mikel

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2009, 05:33:25 PM »
i'm in retail and price is always an issue to customers; and after the hit on all our assets over the last 3-6 months each of our discresionary incomes and available funds are affected. we all must make decisions based on our individual priorities.

personally; it's the music that is important to me. as i am convinced that The Tape Project offers the best possible software we are all ever likely to hear or have access to; i have decided to invest in these tapes. i am thankful for the huge commitment made by Doc, Paul and Romo to this project and realize that it's health and viability depends on having sufficient revenue to sustain it; including some return. since this can never be a high volume proposition those involved will have to spend some money. the time, the raw tapes, the space, the machines, the royalties; it's lots of money and i would rather have these guys charge enough to justify the effort rather than compromise the process or the quality of the music. any start-up business will have more expense than is originally predicted.....particularly one that cannot have dramatically increased volume (which is normally where cost efficiencies come from)

my hope is that enough people can continue to buy these tapes so it can continue. if The Tape Project did 'fold their tent' i think many would lament not investing. and the likelyhood of anyone else doing this would be dramatically reduced. we would all be the losers.

as far as how and when to talk about price on series 2; i think it would have been niave to talk price increase without also revealing some of the series 2 titles. it's the value of the music which makes the case for the investment.

just my 2 cents.

mikel

Mike Lavigne

Offline john

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2009, 03:11:47 AM »

my hope is that enough people can continue to buy these tapes so it can continue. if The Tape Project did 'fold their tent' i think many would lament not investing. and the likelyhood of anyone else doing this would be dramatically reduced. we would all be the losers.

as far as how and when to talk about price on series 2; i think it would have been niave to talk price increase without also revealing some of the series 2 titles. it's the value of the music which makes the case for the investment.

just my 2 cents.

mikel


[/quote]

  I'm sure everybody including myself want this project to succeed, as it will no doubt. The point was, that there was no talk period, about the price increases. i would suggest that its naive not to expect some comment regarding the way it was handled.
John Taylor

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Offline mikel

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2009, 08:16:30 AM »

  I'm sure everybody including myself want this project to succeed, as it will no doubt. The point was, that there was no talk period, about the price increases. i would suggest that its naive not to expect some comment regarding the way it was handled.

i recognize that anyone posting here wants this project to succeed. my comments began with a recognition that price will always be an issue and fair game to discuss.

i manage a large Honda automobile dealership. trust me; the whole world has an opinion on the price i charge and long ago i got over taking that personally.

OTOH a business does not use the democratic process to price it's goods (that's how government works, and we can see the result of that); and you never see a price on the new model until it is offered for sale. then the marketplace either supports it or it does not based on the percieved value for the price. my point was just that, as customers, it is not reasonable to expect to be involved with setting pricing or seeing furture pricing on products not yet offered.

i am not questioning anyone's right to offer an opinion on the price; only that somehow they are 'irritated' that they were not consulted first......and that is not the real world.

Mike Lavigne

Offline Kenkirk

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2009, 09:20:39 AM »

[/quote]


OTOH a business does not use the democratic process to price it's goods (that's how government works, and we can see the result of that); and you never see a price on the new model until it is offered for sale. then the marketplace either supports it or it does not based on the percieved value for the price. my point was just that, as customers, it is not reasonable to expect to be involved with setting pricing or seeing furture pricing on products not yet offered.

i am not questioning anyone's right to offer an opinion on the price; only that somehow they are 'irritated' that they were not consulted first......and that is not the real world.


[/quote]

Agreed. My personal concerns ( opinions )were that the increase seemed too much too soon in a poor economy. I am afraid of attrition and the loss of the project. With the cost of a TP approaching 5 or 6 new 45 rpm vinyl reissues, it is getting harder to justify the expense. The tapes are the best. But I blow through allot of analog music. I crave new titles on a regular basis. These 10 new titles a year are a drop in the bucket. A very nice drop in the bucket, but you can only listen to the same title so many times before you get tired of it. I have not made a decision.... I seem to be on the fence and that sucks. Two of my friends have already bought Charter subs to series one after hearing TP tapes on my system. I have been very commited.

Ken
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Offline john

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2009, 11:46:46 AM »
Mike
[/quote]


i am not questioning anyone's right to offer an opinion on the price; only that somehow they are 'irritated' that they were not consulted first......and that is not the real world.

Mike
[/quote]

Mike,
        i don't recall any saying that they were irritated or that they expected to be consulted first, thats silly. The point was that nobody said anything at all about the price increases. It was left for people to find out when they went to the subscription page. If the original price is not high enough to cover costs or make a profit then of course the price needs to go up. I'm sure everyone who subscribed to the first series is grateful to be able to do so, it really is quite possibly a once in a lifetime opportunity. I personally never thought I would see the day that someone would put in all the hard work necessary to get such a project up and running and am more grateful for that than mere words here can convey. I took out a charter subscription for the first ten tapes and will do again for the second series for that very reason.

John Taylor

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Offline docb

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2009, 12:12:07 PM »
If we didn't increase the price, the Project would most certainly end. PJ's post explains a lot of why. I remember Paul, Romo and I having a long discussion about our pricing on the way to CES 2007. When we started costing it out with the real numbers we had spent rather than our original projections, we saw that even at $200 we were going to take it in the shorts for a while. As regards when we announced the increase, that is not what's important, it's how long we give folks after the increase to get it together. We have given folks nearly two months to subscribe to the next series at a special pricing, before it goes up to the full increase.

We appreciate that you have played your tapes, Ken (which as I recall you purchased from an original Charter subscriber via ebay rather than from us) for folks who later subscribed. Thank you! This is a critical part of helping the Tape Project grow, letting folks hear some exceptional recordings of exceptional performances on an exceptional format.

And Steve, hey man, I wish we had a bunch of rock titles too. We are working on it, and that's why we still have four slots open in the series. Maybe if a bunch of enthused slightly off kilter tape guys started bugging the major labels... Choosing a range of genres in order to keep everyone happy is really not very easy. It sure would be easier if guys who listened to tape only liked polka music.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline ironbut

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2009, 12:22:26 PM »
Yeah, I'm sure it's the rock acts that make it hard to get rights to their stuff too (as in $$$). I just love to state the obvious don't I?
OK,.. so how about the big CES post Doc? And don't forget the photos of PB on stage with the show girls and PS doing the duet with Cher.
steve koto
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Offline Ben

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2009, 01:10:35 PM »
Suddenly 10 hours of Bobby Vinton come to mind.

I just grumble of the cost of shipping, and people
speculating around with price of the dollar  more than the
tapes. I don't see it as a bad economy, rather the idea that we import
cheap rather make our own products has gotten out of hand.

Back to 45's , since a 45 is about 15 minutes as a guess, you
need about 4 - 45's to give 60 minutes of tape time. As a guess of
$50 per 45 that still comes to $200 a tape price range.

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Offline steveidosound

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2009, 02:55:53 PM »
"It sure would be easier if guys who listened to tape only liked polka music."

That's it !
Some Lawrence Welk for one of the remaining series 2 titles !

(It was getting a little tense so I thought I would throw in a bit of bad humor...)

Ben, 45RPM 12" re-issue albums are typically priced per album (with 2-3 discs) not per disc.

Completly off topic, some last issue 7" 45 stereo singles with the big hole that we are all familiar with from the 80s and 90s were mastered very well and exhibit excelent dynamics and low distortion etc. when played on a good quality system.
 
 
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline ironbut

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2009, 03:11:59 PM »
I bought the Neil Young Greatest Hits Classic Records release when it first came out. It included a 45 with "Sugar Mountain" which I love. It took me 2 months to find that darn 45rpm adapter (even though you can buy on for cheap, I knew I had one ). It was worth it though. I still have lots of Beach Boys era stuff and some Beatles on those. Scratched to hell, but still, playing "Red Rubber Ball" by Cyrkle (?) really can bring back some memories.
steve koto
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Offline Ben

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Re: 2nd series titles
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2009, 03:30:43 PM »
The only thing sold out here are the $29.95 CD/DVD players so I know very little
about reissued records of any kind.  I was thinking The Muppets and ballroom
dancing sketches when you quoted "... polka music", and the Blue Faceless puppets
playing the trumpet.

I can see it now.

We had planned some Music by Dr Tooth? but Animal ate the dub
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 03:34:43 PM by Ben »
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