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Author Topic: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try  (Read 17954 times)

Offline TomR

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LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« on: March 20, 2009, 10:00:41 AM »
I have way too many  prerecorded tapes that I bought in the 70's that squeal when I play them (or try to play them - the squealing is unbearable). These include some that I consider to be real gems - the San Francisco Opera Gala (an operatic greatest hits, sung by Decca's greatest stars of the 50's and 60"s), the Barber of Seville with Varviso conducting, Mahler's 2nd with Solti, and most likely others - I have been too nervous to try to play some of my tapes. All of these are Ampex sourced tapes made in the 70's, although I also had a BC tape squeal slightly (the Stokowski led Rach 3).

Based on a discussion that we had last Saturday at Astrotoy's, I purchased a small bottle of LAST tape preservative and last night tried it on my first tape, which was the Solti Mahler 2. BTW, while I understand that one can buy LAST products from various sources, I bought mine factory direct - ordered it on Monday, had it in my hands on Wednesday. Great email follow up and great service.

LAST tape preservative is easy to apply, and a lot less wet than I figuredd it would be. I treated the reel both on fast forward and rewind - the instructions indicate you only need to do it once.

So - I was definitely encouraged when the tape did not squeal at all on side 1. However, halfway through side 2, it started to squeal again, which was very disappointing.

I am planning to re-treat the reel and try again, and I will also try it on a few other tapes - nothing to lose, correct?

Question for those of you that have tried this - do you also use the LAST head treatment in conjunction with the tape preservative?

Thomas Ream

Technics RS1520(not yet modified)/Nottingham Space 294 w/Koetsu Black and Simaudio LP5.3/Sony XA9000ES/ReVox A-77/Simaudio I-7/B&W 804's

Offline ironbut

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 12:35:01 PM »
Hi Tom, if the Ampex tapes that squeal are backcoated, it's probably sticky shed. It's not the backcoating but the era of tape manufacture as far as anyone can tell at this point (there is some debate though). I've pretty much found the same thing that you have regarding squealing (luckily I only have one that's bad but it's a real favorite of mine). After various treatments (drying with silica gel, Last) it worked great for just a couple of passes and then reverted to it's old tricks. For me, one of the worst things about sticky shed is that what makes it squeal. The binder that holds the oxide on the backing is mixing with moisture (hydrolysis) and changing to a tar like substance. This gets on the guides and heads and the friction of the tape moving across it makes it stickier. Since this stuff is now on your machine, it makes tapes that don't squeal squeal. That stuff is real tough to get off and I use the strongest head cleaner I have. It gets into the inside edges of the guides (since the tape edge is where the binder is most exposed to moisture and friction) so you really have to get a magnifier and good light to be sure you've gotten it all.
So, is there a practical solution to this problem for us listeners. There's baking of course (like Larry's dehydrator). That was the cure that Ampex came up with when the problem reared it's ugly head. Unfortunately, it's only temporary but you can almost always get a pass or two to transfer the contents. The Last tape preservative, as you found, doesn't work for true sticky shed tapes. My experiment (which is still ongoing) with silica gel gave me a couple of days worth of clean playback but I returned the treated tape to my shelves and when I tried playing it after a few days, it started squealing again. I've since returned it to the sealed bag with several lb.s of gel and haven't tried it again.
What I'm thinking is that a combination of all the above might work the best. The process I have in mind would be as follows;
1. Bake the tape as outlined by eddie Ciletti http://www.tangible-technology.com/tape/baking1.html
2. Treat with Last tape treatment
3. Store in a sealed bag with a few silica gel packs
You can forgo step one and dry the tape with the gel alone, but it takes a very long time (months) and each time you pull the tape out to check it , it's going to begin absorbing moisture. I just sealed mine up and forgot about it for almost a year! (which was cool with me since I really did forget about it!.
The Last will reduce the friction that exacerbates the problem.
And hopefully, storing it with the silica gel will keep the tape from going bad.
This might seem like a lot to go through but it really depends on how many tapes with this problem you have, and how much you want to listen to them on the original tape.
steve koto
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Offline steveidosound

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 02:14:29 PM »
  What I'm thinking is that a combination of all the above might work the best. The process I have in mind would be as follows;
1. Bake the tape as outlined by eddie Ciletti http://www.tangible-technology.com/tape/baking1.html
2. Treat with Last tape treatment
3. Store in a sealed bag with a few silica gel packs
You can forgo step one and dry the tape with the gel alone, but it takes a very long time (months) and each time you pull the tape out to check it , it's going to begin absorbing moisture. I just sealed mine up and forgot about it for almost a year! (which was cool with me since I really did forget about it!.
The Last will reduce the friction that exacerbates the problem.
And hopefully, storing it with the silica gel will keep the tape from going bad.
 

That is the most comprehensive plan I have seen for dealing with this issue.
I would add making a dub (analog R2R or gulp, digital) that you can live with while the tape is in a playable state. But try to preserve the original.
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline TomR

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 04:22:13 PM »
Steve, I dunno, I don't see a lot of gunk on my deck after I play one of these and it is pretty easy to clean. I did notice that another tape that does not exhibit squealing did so when I played it right after the Mahler 2 (this was the BC Unicorn Mahler 3 conducted by Horenstein) and did not do so after I cleaned the deck....so maybe this is early sticky shed. I am going to give this all another try, as mentioned. If it doesn't work, I go to step 2. All of the content of these tapes is available on vinyl, either new or used, but I would really like to fix these tapes. It bothers both the collector in me as well as the conservationist.
Thomas Ream

Technics RS1520(not yet modified)/Nottingham Space 294 w/Koetsu Black and Simaudio LP5.3/Sony XA9000ES/ReVox A-77/Simaudio I-7/B&W 804's

Offline astrotoy

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2009, 09:59:50 PM »
Tom, I've done the dehydrator only once on a double reel masterdub that was 15ips 2 track on 10.5" reels. It was definitely shedding and messed up my Bottlehead Technics badly. I spent a long time cleaning it up. When I completed the dehyrating according to the article referenced, I immediately made a copy with my ATR-700. I then junked the tapes, saving only the empty reels.  I have over 100 Barclay Crockers, most all of them bought new as a subscriber like you in the early 80's. So far none of them that I have listened to recently have squealed - keeping my fingers crossed. I did buy in that same era a few (5 in total) from DTR (Direct to Tape Recording) by Bob Sellman. I think all of them have sticky shed syndrome. I haven't gotten around to dehydrate them yet. I'll post the results. Probably if it works, I will probably just dub them onto new tape.  They are all 4 tr 7.5ips, dbx II (he calls it Type X) encoded. One thing nice about dbx is that they don't have a reference level like dolby B - so you don't have to be precise in level matching when you dub them.

I have used LAST preservative on all my prerecorded tapes, probably beginning 10-15 years ago - can't remember exactly when. I would treat them as I picked them up, typically used. I don't remember whether I did the B-C tapes when I bought them, but if not, they weren't all that old when they were treated. So I may have prevented the squealing by doing the treatment early.

I have used the LAST tape head treatment on my tape recorders - mostly my old Akai 747dbx. But I did apply some recently (yesterday) to both the Bottlehead Technics and ATR-700. Can't say I hear a difference, definitely doesn't sound worse - maybe a bit better, but I also cleaned the heads thoroughly and demagnetized both machines at the same time.

Larry

Larry
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Offline ironbut

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2009, 11:04:25 PM »
I forgot to say that I use the head treatment pretty religiously. I can hear a very slight increase in the highs on some of the tapes. What I really like about the entire Last system is I don't have to clean my heads nearly as often. The tape treatment seems to clean the tapes pretty well and I almost never have drop outs after I've used it (of course if the tape is physically damaged, no snake oil in the world is going to help). I think it's because of the tape treatment but the only area of my machine that ever gets much any oxide is the capstan (and that's just barely visible on a q-tip after 10 tapes or so). For the most part, the head treatment lasts a real long time so I don't mind the cost.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline oneobgyn

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2009, 07:23:36 AM »
How often do you guys demagnetize and what do you use?
There's ALWAYS another Steve Williams BUT there's only "oneobgyn"
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Offline oneobgyn

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 08:28:52 AM »
Any comments on this one or are there better demagnetizers?

http://usrecordingmedia-store.stores.yahoo.net/handmagdebyr.html
There's ALWAYS another Steve Williams BUT there's only "oneobgyn"
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Offline Ki Choi

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2009, 09:37:20 AM »
Hi Steve:

Your Studer A810 should need very little demag other than the heads since most of the guides, roller, and other parts that touch tape are stainless steel or other non-ferrous material.  Unless you swap the headblocks often, I would use the Hand-D-Mag, mother of all demag, every six months or so.

I have used consumer demag device with some success for normal uses but if you magnitize the heads accidently by applying power inappropriately (swapping headstack with power on for an example...), it will take the power of Han-D-Mag to do the job properly.

Ki
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Offline astrotoy

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2009, 09:40:44 AM »
I also use the Hand-D-Mag. Very powerful. I have been doing quite a bit of recording on my Ampex ATR-700 recently and I demag before any long recording session.  Make sure the machine is off and you don't have any recorded tapes nearby!!  Larry
Larry Toy CharterMember-BHReproTechnics1506/Akai747dbx/OtariMX5050B3-ClassicalVinylFreak-15Krecs-VPIHRXRimDrv-LyraSkala-HelikonMono-HerronVTSP3A/BHPhonoPre-PacificMicrosonics Model2 - Pyramix&MykerinosCard-OppoNE-Proceed AVP2+6/CVP2-CJ MET1-Cary 2A3SE-AvantgardeDuos-3Solos-VelodyneDD18Sub

Offline ironbut

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 09:51:39 AM »
I think that the RB Annis is the gold standard for current production demagnetizers.
I use mine a few times a year. It all depends on how many hours you put on your machine and the material that the heads are made of. You don't have to go crazy and do it every month (I use my machine every day for a couple of hours). I have a little meter that RB used to sell as a kit with the demag and if I get any deflection of the meter I do it. I'd say that every three months should be fine for most folks.
One thing that I can't emphasis enough is when you demagnetize your tape path (make sure and do all the metal parts that contact the tape) is turn off your machine before doing this. You can damage your electronics or VU meters since it's like applying a gazillion dB signal!
For those who've never ruined a VU meter, take it from someone who has more than once, these are extremely delicate devices. To react quickly and accurately, they are very low mass in nature and one uneducated touch of a finger to it's movement will destroy them. So, never open one up. If the spider that you want to get out of it is dead, live with it's withered corpse and maybe name your machine after it.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline oneobgyn

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 11:06:37 AM »
Thanks guys.

So last question is what do you do after you (of course) turn off your machine to demagnetize.
There's ALWAYS another Steve Williams BUT there's only "oneobgyn"
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Offline TomR

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2009, 11:11:12 AM »
I use the Hand D Mag from RB Annis - comes with instructions. I demag about once per month.
Thomas Ream

Technics RS1520(not yet modified)/Nottingham Space 294 w/Koetsu Black and Simaudio LP5.3/Sony XA9000ES/ReVox A-77/Simaudio I-7/B&W 804's

Offline steveidosound

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2009, 05:18:08 PM »
Thanks guys.

So last question is what do you do after you (of course) turn off your machine to demagnetize.

This is probably as good of explanation as any from "the man himself" Jay McKnight, from "the site itself" MRLabs, on all things regarding magnetic recording.
http://home.flash.net/~mrltapes/mcknight_demag.pdf
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline oneobgyn

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Re: LAST Tape Preservative - First Try
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2009, 05:26:11 PM »
Thanks Steve
There's ALWAYS another Steve Williams BUT there's only "oneobgyn"
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Link to my system  http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1049587927