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Author Topic: Advice on choosing a recorder thats best for a specific movie score  (Read 6020 times)

Offline TEM

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Hi all, first post here and I'm looking for some advice on finding a recorder (or recorders) that would be suitable for a particular project that I am about to embark upon.

I'm a composer and musician working from my own studio in London and I've been commissioned to provide a soundtrack for a low budget movie where sound and analogue recording are key elements of plot. I can't reveal too much at this stage but even the title of the movie is regarding audio and throughout the movie one of the central themes concerns analogue recordings to tape and a crime that is solved using the tapes.

I don't want the soundtrack to come across as low-fi or hissy, dirty or badly recorded, but I do want to give the movie a sprinkling of that classic character, which is synonymous with analogue tape. At some moments in the movie I want this character to be really obvious and exaggerated, but at others times I want it to be extremely subtle.

Its been some time since I last used tape during my days at university when I experimented with Uhers and multitracks; by the time I graduated digital had taken over. I don't have any tape recorders here at my studio (I'm all DAW, using Lavry A/D D/A) and hence I am in search of a reel to reel recorder or maybe even a few different devices. Unfortunately I don't have much of a budget and want to limit myself to less than ?2000 for any tape related investments.

The Nagra 4.2 and 4-S are top of my research list at the moment; their size is convenient for the limited space that studio can allocate and they are renowned for their reliability. My only concerns with these units is that the line I/O is unbalanced and that these machines are not known for their 'saturation' but rather for their clean and transparent recording. Also, seeing as much of my recordings will be done in mono, would I get a 'thicker' sound recording to the mono 4.2 rather than 4-S, or is that just splitting hairs?

The Studer A820 half inch 2 track would be a dream purchase, but is no doubt out of my price range, as is the A80 I'd imagine. How does the A810 compare to A820 and how does it compare to the Nagras in its range of ability to go from clean to saturated?

Finally, I would very much appreciate any advice anyone can offer not only regarding the best recorder for my needs but also what brands of tape, recording speeds, tape width, level of wow and flutter, anything that might help create the most distinct tape sound possible.

Thanks in advance.






« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 08:13:40 AM by TEM »

Offline ironbut

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Re: Advice on choosing a recorder thats best for a specific movie score
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2009, 09:22:56 AM »
Hi Tem, welcome to the forum. That sounds like a great project you have going there. It's also interesting in that, just a month or so ago, a "major" recording artist was looking for a vintage mono/tube tape machine to do some solo recording work at various locations (not here but on another forum).
Now I won't profess to be any kind of expert on film sound (not today at least) but my suggestion would be to do your scoring in the digital realm just like you usually do and then take it to a recording studio that specializes in analog tape and process it there. Getting just the right amount of tape saturation or the sound that most folks associate with it can be more than just the tape. Sometimes what your mind's ear has in mind is combination of tape, vintage mixers, and classic compressor/limiters at work. It would be a shame to get a machine ready for your project and then find out that it was unable to produce what you have in mind. There are a number of studios that could do this work and rather than scramble around trying to get the right machine, learn enough about biasing the record electronics to get the sound you want, and only then be able to do your real work. Don't get me wrong, that's a journey that most of us here on this forum enjoy (or we probably wouldn't be here) but if I had to do it for work, I'd much rather sit in a control room while an experienced engineer adjusted this or that until the sound hit that sweet spot that you've envisioned.
If you needed a reel to reel for on shot footage, there are plenty of extremely cool looking ones. I might suggest a Stellavox or a Nagra T rather than the lens hog that the Nagra lll/lV are. Here's a nice video you can download of a Stellavox in action.

http://www.reel2reel.tv/ADC/___quelletpreview.wmv
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 09:37:51 AM by ironbut »
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Offline Brian

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Re: Advice on choosing a recorder thats best for a specific movie score
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2009, 12:53:20 PM »
Hi TEM.  As a motion picture soundman in a "former life", I totally agree with Steve's (aka ironbut) advice.  One additional problem with trying to record a specific "sound" during filming is that it will be YOUR preference for that scene - not necessarily the Director's or Producer's.  With a clean original track you can go back and re-equalize to whatever their highnesses desire. 

A second problem is that of "the weakest link" -- the delicate nuances you describe in your post may very well not be within the capabilities of your final playback medium to reproduce.  You describe the project as a "low budget movie" so I assume the final product will be in either 35mm or 16mm film - and for "low budget" I assume probably 16mm or at least not one of the major-studio 35mm release formats.  Any of the machines you mentioned have noise floors miles below that of your available film playback formats.  Likewise, the machines harmonic distortion, saturation characteristics, frequency response, etc. all supercede those of the available film systems.  A lot of what goes on in a film mix is cranking in corrections to make a track that is sounding good in a recording studio sound close to the same when played back in a movie theater. Even the best Hollywood sound engineers don't trust their ears to do this on location - they bring it back "clean" and "fix it in the mix". You will notice that, in The Tape Group, the first thing they did was set standards for a playback system of exceptional quality and then used it to judge their original material.  Unfortunately, you don't have this option.  You will have to learn the weaknesses of the playback system the movie industry has determined to be "cost effective" and adjust your production system to it. 

My additional recommendation to those of Steve's would be to find an experienced film sound guy or gal who has had many of their location recordings translated into final release tracks and would enjoy working with you on the project.  Pay them for their experience (and they probably already have all the equipment you need calibrated and ready to use) and collaborate.  You can generate the quality of sound you think appropriate in your studio, play it for your engineer who can advise whether it can be reproduced in a theater and, when you have adjusted it to where it can, the two of you can sell it to the Director.

If, on the other hand, by "movie" you mean video format, then in some ways you have less problems and in some ways more.  Most of the modern video formats are capable of reproducing better sound than the standard film formats, but they are played back in a far greater range of environments and on more diverse equipment.  If video is the final format, then fire your mopic soundperson, specify the video format/presentation environment you want to optimize for and hire a colleague with experience making final tracks for that environment.
Good luck with your project!
Brian
Brian Downey

Offline TEM

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Re: Advice on choosing a recorder thats best for a specific movie score
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2009, 03:36:14 PM »
Hi guys. Thanks very much for your feedback so far. I should have been more precise about exactly what my roll is in the production and exactly what I am trying to achieve.

I believe they are shooting on super 16, but last I heard they are trying to find the extra to go 35mm. There will (hopefully) be a cinema release. Its a dark thriller, slightly arty, but the plot is actually fairly coherent. Imagine if The Sixth Sense had been directed by David Lynch, except there's something spooky going on with tape recordings.

I am primarily the composer, but I am in charge of the entire post production sound procedure.

The location sound will be recorded digitally (that was agreed very early in pre production) and I have every confidence in the recordist's and his gear.

The scoring process will begin at my studio with a DAW sketch mostly using Vienna Symphonic Library. I have budgeted to digitally record a small string section (maybe 16-20 players) to picture at a pro studio using a conductor. Once the bulk of the score is recorded, I plan to blend it with the VSL instruments and record any additional instruments such as guitar and drums at my studio. I will also be in charge of foley and sfx, which will also be recorded at my studio.

The final mixdown to 5.1 will happen at a different studio and to my knowledge they have no analogue toys and even if they did, any dramatic enhancement would have been done by that stage.

The story is crying out for a memorable soundtrack. I plan to start with a beautifully recorded string section and then, at times, really go to town with creative production techniques. This experimentation will definitely involve processing the audio by recording to and from tape. Sometimes it will be sections of dialogue, other times individual instruments, other times atmos, foley or sfx, but it will almost certainly be carried out by me. I've already got a few nice toys here, but tape is definitely a missing ingredient that I feel I should have at my disposal.

Thanks again - I really welcome as much feedback as possible.