Tape Project Forum

General Category => Prerecorded Tapes => Topic started by: steveidosound on November 30, 2011, 08:09:33 AM

Title: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on November 30, 2011, 08:09:33 AM
Anybody ever research  the year and label issue of the first 2 track stereo pre-recorded tapes and also what were the last ones to be issued before 4 track took over completely in, I would guess, the early 60s?
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: docb on November 30, 2011, 11:56:01 AM
Staggered or in-line?

("What do you mean? An African or European swallow?")
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: ironbut on November 30, 2011, 02:58:35 PM
Hi Steve,

The earliest commercial tapes I have listed in my catalogs is 1956. I'm not sure about stereo but the 1958 Harrison Tape Guide (winter) has more stereo tapes listed than mono (single and dual track).
I believe that the Harrison Guides started in 1957 and were up to 6 issues a year by '58 and oddly enough, the Winter 1958 catalog is 58 pages long. 27 pages of it is stereo listing.
Regarding the staggered/in line heads question, many companies who produced staggered head stereo tapes (like Livingston), continued to do so even after they began to release "in line" 2 tracks (at least for a while). This kind of blurs that cut off date.

There was a discussion of commercial tape releases on the ARSC list about a year back (IIRC). I don't there was a solid answer on exactly who and when the first tape releases made it to the public but the darts kept hitting 1956 (although we guessed there might have been some "special releases" which weren't sold to the general public,.. worlds fairs/special events/speeches etc).

Regarding the last 2 track tapes that were released, I heard of some folks calling themselves The Tape Project that are still hangin in there.
Seriously, I'll check my catalogs and add a reply to this thread sometime in the near future (it'll give me a good excuse to clean up my scans).
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: MylesAstor on November 30, 2011, 10:02:12 PM
Not exactly but what I remember are that R2R tape reviews came out in Stereo Review and High Fidelity about two years before stereo LPs. I think the first (Audio Fidelity) LP review was in '57.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on November 30, 2011, 11:53:43 PM
Not exactly but what I remember are that R2R tape reviews came out in Stereo Review and High Fidelity about two years before stereo LPs. I think the first (Audio Fidelity) LP review was in '57.

Yup, about 1-2 years before the stereo Lp.

As to staggered or inline, I think staggered was first by a bit but not sure why I think I know that. Magnecord and VM had players.

 The Ampex home player was about 55 or 56 also.

I just wanted to know if anyone had any idea when RCA, Columbia etc. (or any of the smaller guys) stopped production in favor of 4 track. Did some linger till the mid 60s for example, making both?

I would call the Tape Project more of a "revival" of the format, but really it is the extension of the pro master tape into the high end "consumer" world. But I guess a stereo Ampex player was "high end" for the mid 50s !
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: stellavox on December 02, 2011, 07:18:42 PM
I just checked my 2 track list, as I remembered that I had listed the earliest listed dates for some of the recordings/labels.

Audiosphere wins!  It's first tapes were issued in May of 1954!.  Looks like the Boston label followed sometime in 1955.

Charles
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: ironbut on December 02, 2011, 07:36:49 PM
Excellent Charles!
I was hoping you'd see this thread. I took a quick glance at your list but didn't see any dates ( I guess I shoulda looked a little closer!).
Do you remember the earliest Harrison Tape Guides you saw?
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on December 03, 2011, 12:18:52 AM
Yes, but not to be _too_ insistent, when did it end? When were the last of the 2 tracks listed? I mean, were there any smaller labels that soldiered on with the format well into the 60s for example? I know some of the majors issued in both formats, but did they do it "serial" or "parallel" at least for some period.

BTW, the 1st  Ampex 2 track inline home deck was based on the 600 series transport. It was called the 612 and could be used with 2ea. 620 powered speakers for a complete portable stereo playback system.
http://reel2reeltexas.com/vinAd56Ampex612Rev.jpg
Yes, I have one, along with the speakers - in need of restoration  - of  course...
There was also apparently a version in furniture finish wooden cabinets as well.
(see lower right corner of 1st image or this one -
http://reel2reeltexas.com/vinAd56Ampex612-1.jpg
I think these would qualify as the first stereophonic devices for home playback - except if VM had a mono recorder with stereo companion amp / speaker out before that. It would have been staggered format as was the Magnecord which was THE 1st stereo recorder I think.

OK, from the Voice of Music website faq -

Q7-5: I have a switch on my V-M tape recorder with two positions called ?Stacked? and ?Staggered?. What does it do?

A7-5: First, a little history. The very first stereo format was on reel to reel tape! V-M Corporation offered a conversion kit for the venerable Model 700 in 1955 - some three years before stereo records and five years before stereo FM broadcasts! The first format? Very simple - take a second half track monaural head, turn it upside down, and mount it to the right of the existing monaural head. Connect it up with another pre-amp and you have the ?staggered? stereo tape format! The tapes were recorded with the starting points of the ?L? and ?R? tracks ?staggered? so that both signals would be in sync when picked up by the playback heads. This format is also called ?offset?. In 1958, as magnetic head manufacturing capabilities improved, the ?stacked? or ?in-line? format was invented - and remained the broadcast standard for many years - the so-called ?half track stereo? format. The V-M Model 714 was a hit because it had a switch to play both the newer ?stacked? and older ?staggered? formats. In November of 1959, V-M brought out the Model 720, one of the first on the market to play the new ?quarter track? stereo tapes.


aaand a reference to the Magnecord PT6-BN (for binaural) tape machine, which while not a consumer machine, seems to have pre-dated all. -
http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~hl/s.html
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: ironbut on December 03, 2011, 01:41:55 AM
Wow, great stuff Steve!
Just looking at those two mono cartridges on one arm makes my head hurt.

I did look at my Harrison Catalogs but unfortunately, I'm missing the critical years for this inquiry. I also looked through most of my 1/2 track tapes but unfortunately, only a few are dated.
It would appear that the RCA releases are dated. Maybe one of the other members here who has a number of the 1/2 track RCA's could post the latest dates listed and the recordings. We could cross check to see if the same release was being made in 1/4 track the same or an earlier year.

BTW, "Direct to Tape" releases were supposed to be available in several forms. 1/4 track, 1/2 track,  7.5 or 15 ips, Dolby B, C or DBX encoded. These were made in the early '80s. The only ones I've had any personal experience with have all been 7.5ips, 1/4 track and either Dolby B or DBX encoded.(also available on cassette and digital cassettes).
Title: Re: the 2 track era - when did it end
Post by: stellavox on December 05, 2011, 09:21:47 AM
Steve,

I don't know if there was any "definitive" end to the era - I'd say that they/it just "petered out" -  due to plummeting sales -  once the four-tracks hit the scene in quantity.  My best guess would be around 1960. 

To be more precise - If someone wants to research when the "major" labels started issuing four-tracks - then either take that year or add one year to it.

On my list, I put certain "other" information, like dates, under the label heading before the individual titles.  Got most of the dates by looking back through early issues of the monthly "Tape Recording" magazine (or whatever it was called) to see when companies started advertising their wares.

Regarding "Direct to Tape", I did buy a few of their 15ips, 2 track offerings - with no encoding.  As I remember, they didn't have too many.  Got a organ tape which was nice but couldn't stand the music on the pop tape.

Charles
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: ironbut on December 05, 2011, 01:53:49 PM
I think I've got the same organ Direct to Tape (Norman MacKenzie at Trinity Cathedral) except mine is  1/4 track, 7.5ips and Dolby B encoded. I'm glad to hear that they actually did make some 1/2 track, 15ips tapes and it wasn't just something that was printed on the boxes.

For others that don't know, Direct to Tape was cut from the typical "audiophile" releases cloth of the time (early-mid 80's) The music is performed by artists who generally didn't have recording contracts (often up and coming) in halls with interesting acoustics. Even the artwork reminds me of the Mark Levinson Labs records which were released around the same time (IIRC).
At least with the ones I've heard (all 1/4 track,7.5ips), there isn't anything that special with these releases and many of the Barclay-Crockers sound better to me.

edit;
I found that DTR is still in business and that they specialize in organ music (so it would be a surprise if Charles and my tapes are the same release). Here's the linky;

http://www.dtrmusic.com/

Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: docb on December 05, 2011, 03:01:31 PM
One should note that DTR is a misnomer these days. More like DTHD (direct to hard disk)
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: Listens2tubes on December 05, 2011, 06:48:00 PM
I wish DTR would release some 2-track 15ips of heir tape archive. 
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: astrotoy on December 07, 2011, 12:53:26 PM
I bought 6 DTR R2R releases when they first came out. They were all in 4Tr 1/4in format. Unfortunately, ALL of them have suffered from Sticky Tape Syndrome and have been junked after baking and copying.  Larry
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on December 17, 2011, 02:27:29 PM
So I visited our wonderful Computer History museum here in the Silicon Valley recently and noticed that they had in their display showing the evolution of memory devices an example of consumer magnetic reel to reel pre-recorded tape. Not just any reel mind you, but a 2 track copy of  Brubeck's "Time Out"  just stuck there on the wall near the much bigger reels of early computer data tape.
So, when I got home I decided to see if any examples existed on eBay. One was there so I decided to watch it.
I thought my prediction of a couple of hundred dollars was outlandish.
It ultimately sold for -  $$$ SIX HUNDRED AND SEVENTY SIX DOLLARS !!!
I knew that some 2 tracks had been going out of sight, but that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of !
There must be crazy amounts of money out there somewhere chasing the small supply of these sorts of things.

P.S. ! Just looked under completed items and a  2 track copy of Miles Davis - Kind of Blue  from the same seller went for - wait for it -  $770.00 !
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: ironbut on December 17, 2011, 04:50:12 PM
Hi Steve,

The Computer History Museum sound cool. I'll have to make a visit there myself.
I remember when they used to do exhibits about silicon valley at some of the local malls (Vallco IIRC). I loved seeing those huge hard drives etc.

I think I watched that KOB auction (or one of them). The 2 track tape doesn't even have all the tracks the lp does. There's just no making sense of the prices collectors are willing to pay. I think I paid around $60 for my original mono KOB lp a few years back. It's about a B+ but who knows what condition that tape is in!
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: Gkar on December 26, 2011, 02:46:19 PM
So I visited our wonderful Computer History museum here in the Silicon Valley recently and noticed that they had in their display showing the evolution of memory devices an example of consumer magnetic reel to reel pre-recorded tape. Not just any reel mind you, but a 2 track copy of  Brubeck's "Time Out"  just stuck there on the wall near the much bigger reels of early computer data tape.
So, when I got home I decided to see if any examples existed on eBay. One was there so I decided to watch it.
I thought my prediction of a couple of hundred dollars was outlandish.
It ultimately sold for -  $$$ SIX HUNDRED AND SEVENTY SIX DOLLARS !!!
I knew that some 2 tracks had been going out of sight, but that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of !
There must be crazy amounts of money out there somewhere chasing the small supply of these sorts of things.

And why would that be surprising?  Really?  There is a major concentration of wealth that is looking for something to do with that money, those who have become audiophiles are driving the tape market waay up!  And not only tapes, but other collectibles, I see the market for the best of the vintage comic books jumping up in large amounts each month, with new records each month.  Whether that/this is money that is looking for investment opportunities, or just people with more money than they can spend, this money is realling driving the high-end collectibles out of sight!

P.S. ! Just looked under completed items and a  2 track copy of Miles Davis - Kind of Blue  from the same seller went for - wait for it -  $770.00 !
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on December 30, 2011, 05:26:03 PM
Hi,
Does anyone know about all the eBay 2 tracks that are say "Cal-Western Stereo" on the boxes? All listings seem to be from the "Reel Lady" Are they copies from other tapes or vinyl perhaps? I had mentioned that some early 4 track car tapes were duplicated from vinyl by independent shops and distributed back in the day.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: ironbut on December 31, 2011, 01:19:37 PM
She has some interesting stuff for sure.
I don't know anything about those tapes either but as I've asked before regarding some of these "master/safety masters" offered for sale on eBay, I'd love to know more.
Luckily, most of these tapes seem to have been recorded before the "sticky shed" era so they could be in really good shape and playable.
Unfortunately, most of these kinds of auctions end with prices that are close to or sometimes much more than the Tape Project tapes so it's just not within my financial scope to find out (those dice are just too heavy for little old me to roll!)
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on December 31, 2011, 06:50:07 PM
I did notice that all boxes with that label on the front also show a spine shot with the original label and their number and the artist and title. Nobody can say who these Cal-Western Stereo folks were? If they are actually the original  2 track tapes with someone's generic label pasted over the artwork, they are worth it for sure. If copies of one sort or another, probably not so much so.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: stellavox on January 01, 2012, 07:52:54 AM
Regarding Cal Western - I checked my two-track stereo pre-record list residing in the files section of the Yahoogroups Reel_Tape thread
 http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Reel_Tapes/files/
And do include maybe a dozen titles from Cal Western, which was supposedly out of San Jose.  Maybe some of you'se "locals" can do some more digging.  They apparently issued a few of their own titles plus copies/reissues of certain RCA, Columbia and other labels.  Don't think I've ever heard a tape so I can't comment on their "quality.

Reel lady is the current go-to-girl for 2 tracks and "master dubs".

BTW Steve if you'd like to host the list here I'll send it to you (or whomever would like to do it).  Don't have a website to link it to (Yet)

Happy New Year

Charles 



Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: X-Factor on January 03, 2012, 02:01:58 PM
Hi steveidosound!
According to my records (no pun intended) the last commercial release of a two track reel with inline heads in my collection is by Louis Prima and Keely Smith titled, "Together" from 1961. I have no  specific calendar date, ie. June 12.
The Dot label reel tapes had the quarter and half track reels song lists both on the back cover and may mention an Ampex recorder. A sticker was used to mark the two reel versions from one another. There is no mention of a two track version on the back of a 1962 Keely Smith solo quarter track tape. The Dot reel tapes in my collection run from 1959-1961 and were duplicated by Bel Canto at 71/2 IPS.
Leslie
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on January 03, 2012, 09:09:14 PM
Hi steveidosound!
According to my records (no pun intended) the last commercial release of a two track reel with inline heads in my collection is by Louis Prima and Keely Smith titled, "Together" from 1961. I have no  specific calendar date, ie. June 12.
The Dot label reel tapes had the quarter and half track reels song lists both on the back cover and may mention an Ampex recorder. A sticker was used to mark the two reel versions from one another. There is no mention of a two track version on the back of a 1962 Keely Smith solo quarter track tape. The Dot reel tapes in my collection run from 1959-1961 and were duplicated by Bel Canto at 71/2 IPS.
Leslie

Hi, Thanks for that! One of my points in starting this thread was to try and determine past what point in album release dates should I not reasonably expect to find a 2 track release version. Don't know if labels stopped production earlier, but it sounds as if '61 is a reasonable cut off date. I have some stuff I'm interested in that was issued more like '63-'64 era and it would seem that those would be too late to ever find in that format.

I have an email in to a couple of friends active in Hi Fi in San Jose as far back as the late 50s to see if they can remember anything about Cal-Western 2 track duplicated tapes.
Title: Early RCA
Post by: michael22 on April 18, 2012, 04:19:10 PM
I have a High Fidelity magazine ad from July 1954 showing RCA's first stereo release ECS-1 Strauss/Reiner priced at $14.95. Sixteen monaural tapes were also offered, including the budget Bluebird Series, priced at $12.95.

The ad doesn't mention the format, but I suspect ECS-1 was available only in the staggered/offset/displaced format, as the stacked/inline format had not yet been commercialized in 1954. By 1956, however, nine classical tapes were offered (through ECS-9) in both staggered and stacked formats. The 'displaced' version had a "D" following the three letter code, e.g. ECSD-9. These early duplication tapes were on unmarked reels, had labeled leader tapes attached, and were in generic (non-picture) boxes.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: docb on April 18, 2012, 05:08:23 PM
$14.95 in 1954 dollars - that's $125.42 in 2012 dollars according to one web inflation calculator. Interestingly one sold four years ago on the Bay for $133. Is this album on a single a 7" plastic reel? Looks to be in the photo. If so, consider that TP albums use four times the tape, double the number of reels, they are 10" metal ones and the packaging is a heckuva lot more expensive than a single 7" standup box.  Maybe we aren't too far off the original RCA pricing model.

(http://78.46.76.238/pix/20070401/250100428616.jpg)
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: michael22 on April 18, 2012, 07:37:44 PM
ECS-1 contains about 36 minutes of music. I think there would be a small but dedicated market for high quality 2-track 7-1/2 ips tapes in the $125 range today. Has The Tape Project ever run tests in this format? Considering the vast improvements in tape oxide formulation, tape head design, and transport mechanisms, I'd think a 1:1 duplication from a TP master might sound exceptionally good.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: steveidosound on April 19, 2012, 11:44:28 PM
That is also roughly the same price point as the new 1/4 track tape released recently by the Shins and duplicated who knows how.
Thread here-
http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php/topic,2308.0.html
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: Tim Leggett on April 23, 2012, 07:36:03 PM
ECS-1 contains about 36 minutes of music. I think there would be a small but dedicated market for high quality 2-track 7-1/2 ips tapes in the $125 range today. Has The Tape Project ever run tests in this format? Considering the vast improvements in tape oxide formulation, tape head design, and transport mechanisms, I'd think a 1:1 duplication from a TP master might sound exceptionally good.

I have been picking up some Capitol 2 Tracks from the late 1950's and early 1960's. I have run across two that are pretty long. One is ZF-41 - The Music Man which is 43 minutes. The other is ZF-27 Gliere: Ilya Mourometz which is about 36 minutes. These are thinner tape than the regular Capitol 2 Tracks, but don't sound too bad.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: michael22 on April 24, 2012, 08:55:40 PM
Both tapes mentioned above were duplicated on Scotch 190. The Music Man is, IMHO, the best sounding Broadway original cast album ever recorded. It was extraordinary to hear back in 1957 when it was first released, and has held up very well by today's standards. If I am not mistaken, it was Capitol's first original cast album recorded in stereo. (There are, of course, the two early stereo soundtracks - Carousel and The King and I - which sound flat by comparison.) The Gliere/Stokowski is also one of Capitol's better sounding tapes from that era.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: astrotoy on May 03, 2012, 10:05:34 AM
Interestingly, the first stereo LP issued by RCA was the Reiner Also Sprach LSC-1806 and the second was Fiedler conducting the Boston Pops in Offenbach's Gaite Pariesienne, LSC-1817. They came out a few years (1958?) after the actual recordings made in 1954 IIRC. Today in excellent condition they cost in the low mid 3 figures - I paid that much for my copies. They were also chosen for the Classic Records reissues a few years ago. The reissued Also Sprach has particularly bad high freq emphasis that is not in the original. I have the two track in line issue of the Fiedler, but I am currently 8 time zones away from it.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: X-Factor on February 26, 2014, 03:05:07 PM
The last two track might have been the two track of "Meet The Beatles". Looking at some old Capitol tape catalog inserts the title may have been available until 1964.
Title: Re: the 2 track era
Post by: ironbut on March 06, 2014, 02:55:05 PM
Just tried winning the Reiner Stauss RCA ECS-1.
Unfortunately my pitiful bid didn't stand up to the heavy hitters.
It looks like some other members here gave it a shot too (U47 and I bid almost the same).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-2-TRACK-REEL-TO-REEL-STRAUSS-ALSO-SPRACH-ZARATHUSTRA-REINER-CHICAGO-SYM-TAS-/310883321889?