Tape Project Forum

Tape Machines => Reel to Reel Tape Machines => Topic started by: U47 on February 11, 2009, 09:56:14 PM

Title: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: U47 on February 11, 2009, 09:56:14 PM
Just got my second Lyrec PTR-1 from Lyrec of Canada last weekend. Fully sorted out and tasty sounding. 27 pounds and handles 12 inch reels with switchable NAB/IEC eq at 3 3/4 to 15 ips. Perhaps the last designed analog tape recorder- was introduced in 1989.

Rich
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: Ben on February 11, 2009, 10:11:58 PM
How did you find them? I just did google search on "Lyrec of Canada" for fun and not one hit. Good luck with your toy.
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: U47 on February 11, 2009, 10:38:29 PM
Hi Ben
A friend of mine is just starting out with Lyrec and has supplied me with two Frida PTR-1 decks. Two things I don't like about them are the lousy headphone amps and the lack of microphone preamps. Also forgot to mention that they are balanced input/output.

Rich
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: docb on February 12, 2009, 01:07:39 PM
I'd see the lack of mic preamps as an opportunity to use some nice outboard preamps.
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: steveidosound on February 12, 2009, 01:56:08 PM
Did the same search as Ben with the same result. Do they have a website?
What is some history behind these machines? Did you get the last ones in captivity?
Are they directly TP tape compatible? I guess they would be.
The disc lathe I am supposed to set up at my house has a Lyrec motor. Do they have parts?
The company is pretty unknown in the US, though I think I knew they made tape recorders.
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: Ben on February 12, 2009, 02:02:05 PM
I can see the image now .... some where in Denmark  roams the wild reel to reel decks. Who will bring them back? :)
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: niklasthedolphin on February 12, 2009, 03:18:40 PM
Just got my second Lyrec PTR-1 from Lyrec of Canada last weekend. Fully sorted out and tasty sounding. 27 pounds and handles 12 inch reels with switchable NAB/IEC eq at 3 3/4 to 15 ips. Perhaps the last designed analog tape recorder- was introduced in 1989.

Rich

What headphones did you test the headphone jack with?

"dolph"
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: U47 on February 12, 2009, 03:27:21 PM
Hi Guys
I used Grado and Sennheiser phones to test the headphone section. It could be that they did not like the impedance of the Grados.

The website is http://www.lyrec.dk . They should have some machines for sale shortly.

Regarding mic preamps, I am going to use the slightly massaged Ampex MX-10 tube mixer on my next orchestral recording next week. I'm looking for an assistant to man the Lyrec/Ampex rig, as I'll also be recording to Digital with my Sound Devices 722 recorder. The Ampex/Lyrec will have to be in another room, as they are too noisy mechanically to be in the hall.

Rich
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: U47 on February 12, 2009, 03:37:55 PM
Forgot to add that the two Lyrecs I recently picked up are Mark I versions from 1989/1990. Lyrec produced a Mark II version in 1991/1992. One interesting upgrade was a scrape flutter filter. I find it surprising that they did not include it in the original model. One of my decks is ex-Suisse Radio and the other is ex-BBC. Suisse Radio sold many of  their Nagra decks when the Lyrec was introduced- that is saying something! I would love to find a small Studer mixer from the 70s to use with the Lyrec.

Lyrec Fridas are fully Tape Project compatible, as they are 15 ips/2 track with IEC eq..

Lyrec made some incredible disc cutting equipment. The one Lyrec piece that I knew from the 70s was the Lyrec tape counter, which could be attached to some large studio reel decks. It measured in minutes and seconds at 15 ips and was a thing of great build quality. Lyrec was not well known at all in the US, compared to Europe.

Rich
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: steveidosound on February 12, 2009, 05:01:12 PM
Hi Guys
I used Grado and Sennheiser phones to test the headphone section. It could be that they did not like the impedance of the Grados.

The website is http://www.lyrec.dk . They should have some machines for sale shortly.

Regarding mic preamps, I am going to use the slightly massaged Ampex MX-10 tube mixer on my next orchestral recording next week. I'm looking for an assistant to man the Lyrec/Ampex rig, as I'll also be recording to Digital with my Sound Devices 722 recorder. The Ampex/Lyrec will have to be in another room, as they are too noisy mechanically to be in the hall.

Rich

How do you manage that? Is the Ampex stereo mixer driving the Lyrec and the digital with your stereo mix or do you have some sort of mic split to another mixer for digital?  I see the Sound devices is not multitrack. That is almost unheard of in the digital world! I mean, doing a stereo mix on the fly, not going multi-track for multi-mic and mixing down later. I guess if it is a known mic array or just a spaced or coincident pair. The guy I record symphonic stuff with always wants to do coincident and M/S in a couple of hall positions and perhaps very wide space omnis and then pick and choose at mixdown.
I have an MX-10 as well. What did you do to make it better?
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: U47 on February 12, 2009, 06:15:43 PM
I am planning on using two independent mic rigs- one for analog and one for digital. I'll likely use spaced omni mics with the analog and an ORTF setup with one spot mic for the soloist in the concerto. The Ampex is a 4 in/2 out device. I almost never use more than two or three microphones. For a large orchestra in a good hall, I prefer to use three spaced omni microphones, but generally I use ORTF(two cardioids at 110 degrees with a 6 inch spacing). Pic is of my Sound Devices 722 digital recorder. It records on compact flash and hard drive at up to 24 bit 192K.
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on February 27, 2009, 08:22:11 AM
U47 has generously called me "Lyrec of Canada".  I have in fact had six of these great machines so far and am actively seeking more for other interested users.  I have been using them for the past few years and am continually impressed with their build and sound quality.  The problem of course is the fact that the manufacturer went out of business early last year and a successor company is only just now setting up in Denmark.  However, gradually I am identifying original sources of many of the replacement parts with the help of Charles King.  The machine is built in a modular fashion so there are in fact very few parts that are custom to the Lyrec only.  And since it uses plug in boards, if you have a pair of machines it is very easy to locate the source of any problem by swapping boards. I did stumble across an owner of something like a dozen potential parts machines that were in very poor condition. Unfortunately he did not realize how degraded his units were and was dissatisfied with any offer below the prices warranted by only a near mint machine. I continue to hope to find salvage grade machines that can serve as donors for the remaining good machines. If there are users out there that need the full manual for the Mark I machines I can email you pdfs if you request them.  I am trying to locate a scan or pdf of the Frida Mark II manual and will make that freely available when I have it as well.  I'd love to hear from other Frida users.  Harold Tichenor Bowen Island, BC [email protected]
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on February 27, 2009, 08:37:13 AM
By the way, the picture that U47 posted at the start of this thread is of a pair of my Fridas in use while dubbing a couple of weekends ago. The one on the left is a Mark II and the one on the right a Mark I.  The gear below them includes a rarely used Ashly PQX 572, a Dolby 330 B decoder, a Dolby A301 A decoder, and since the photo was taken I have installed a patch panel to make my dubbing life bearable. I maintain the units using a Sound Technology 1510, a Vellemann scope and a Nakamichi T100. 

Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: niklasthedolphin on February 27, 2009, 09:25:43 AM
I know from the person that was chief engineer on Lyrec factory, that many of these machines were build with specific features on demand.
Price from new was high, around Dkr 76.000,- / US$ ~15.000, and the machine was meant to take over from any studio machine like Studer, Nagra or whatever.
And it did.
I have been told about many studios in Europe, even in Switzerland, in the Middle East and Far East, where These machines took over from exactly Studer and Nagra.

I wonder, however, what differences mkI and mkII had?

Can you tell a little about this?

"dolph"
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on February 27, 2009, 03:42:33 PM
I'm not sure of all the differences between the Mk I and Mk II.  I understand that there are some added electronic control functions and there appear to be changes to how the self test functions operate.  An easy way to see which is which is that the Mk II has an led with each of the REV and FF buttons and the Mk I did not.  The Mk II will also remember the last timer position when the unit was turned off. There are also changes to the main audio board and to the placement of the erase bias trimmer. Other than that I will not be sure until I can locate a Mk II manual and read it. In terms of operation they appear basically the same and used the same heads in the MK II and in the later Mk I although the connectors for the heads to the boards differ.  I would say they are equally fine machines and no great distinction should be drawn between them.  If there are any Frida users interested I had a quantity of good quality dust covers made for them.
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: U47 on February 27, 2009, 04:21:52 PM
When I visited 'Lyrec Canada' last month, I noticed that the Mark II machine had a scrape flutter roller/filter attached.

Rich Brown
Acoustic Arts
Portland, Oregon
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: ironbut on February 27, 2009, 07:25:09 PM
That would be very cool if these machines could become more accessible to N American users. I'd love to hear from you guys more of the technical details such as head manufacture, transport designs etc?
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on March 01, 2009, 11:05:32 AM
Here is the technical sheet from the 1992 sales brochure. All my machines appear to exceed these specifications>

Harold
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: ironbut on March 01, 2009, 12:06:18 PM
Excellent! Thanks Harold. It seems like the Canadian Broadcast Corp. has a pretty long history of using some nice reel to reel machines. I see used Studers (A80's for the most part) from time to time that were used by them. Do you (or anyone else) know if there were standard machines used nationwide? Or for that matter, if NPR here in the states did?
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on March 01, 2009, 12:24:20 PM
I really don't think Lyrecs were ever used by either the CBC or NPR. I've gotten all mine from Europe.  I'm not sure what CBC radio used. I know in video CBC were probably the last users of the Ampex 2" format in the world. When I was producing films over the years delivering to the CBC on 2" was always a hassle when everyone else expected 1"!

Harold
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: docb on March 01, 2009, 12:29:57 PM
My ATR 104 came from CBC in Vancouver.
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on March 02, 2009, 11:53:00 AM
Further to your questions: The tape heads in the later Fridas are built by Advanced Magnetics in Belgium. The transport is fairly direct and handles tape quite well. It will rewind and fast forward at an extremely high speed...scary in fact, rewinding a full 2500 feet in less than a minute. There is a goto button that will take you back to the last stop point or if pressed twice back to zero. The transport appears to be based on a constant feedback monitored series of optical sensors.  The feed and take up motors are regulated to approximate the speed you have selected, and then the capstan motor is designed to lockin at either 3.75, 7.5 or 15 ips.  This too is feedback monitored and yields a very low wow and flutter when locked.  The Frida does not like cold I have learned and will not lock at 15 ips if its below about 50 F. This can be a problem on startup after sitting all night; you need to provide sufficient warmup time. There is a varispeed as well which is very nice when editing and can even close in on a fair approximation of 30ips, but certainly not without some wow. Level, EQ and bias trimmers for each speed are readily available under a flip up cover between the key board and the heads.  There are also switches for NAB/CCIR, Calibrated and variable record and plaback, tape speed or timer select and some self test contacts in the Frida I that allow the internal computer to check all electronic functions.

As Rich Brown previously mentioned the Frida II has a scrape flutter roller and if this part can be located it could clearly be retrofitted to Frida Is.

The PPM meter on the Frida II I suspect has an adjustable response rate. I am hoping to confirm this when I get the newer manual.  What I noticed was that on mine it seems to read like a ballistic VU meter. I think this is probably adjustable since the earlier Fridas all work on instantaneous response. 

When in the horizontal position (which is my preferred way of using the machine as opposed to vertical rack style positioning) the front panel under the keyboard is easily removable and allows access to all the trimmers.  Lifter and pinch roller position and tension, feed and take up tension at speed and rewind/ff, Odb Level, erase bias level, speed lock and stability trimmers are all front accessible.  I usually leave these panels off all the time except when transporting the machines.  Each time I do a dubbing session I do a full run through of these settings per the operation manual.

The lines in and out on the rear are balanced XLRs, and the operating voltage level and fusing is readily accessible.  One drawback is that the Fridas are a bit noisy in operation. I think this is because they are so small and do not include any sound insulation. And certainly the way I use them with the front  panel off this is aggravated. On mine I have disconnected the cooling fans which are only needed if the ambient room temperature is around 100F.  I have also disconnected the tiny playback monitor speaker since it is automatically on when you go into adjustable playback level which may be needed during dubbing.  It would be very easy to retro fit switches for both of these functions.

Rich Brown mentions that the headphone playback is "crappy," but I certainly haven't found that to be true using my Sennheiser HD590s. According to the manual it is also an aux unbalanced line out and has its level controlled by the variable playback pot.  I never use it, so my opinion here might not be particularly reliable.

On the back of the main audio board are a series of jumpers to adjust the input/output/record/pb level ranges of the machine, but for the life of me I still haven't figured them out. On all my machines they have come set in one position, so I just leave them there. From talking to the Lyrec staff before they went out of business these can be used to accommodate different studio line level standards against different flux recording standards. Supposedly it covers .775/1.23/1.55v SLL and 250/320/510.  I operate my units to a studio line level of 1.23 volts and at 250nW/m.  Occasionally I will reset a machine to 320NW/m but I find using Agfa PEM 468 the 250 level gives a very nice recording.

I doubt these Fridas are for everyone. I got into them because I travel a lot with my recorders and with a bad back a professional machine at 25 pounds is a lovely find. If you have a permanent setup I imagine the heavier machines are just fine.  I used Techincs 1500s in ATA travel cases previously and still have them. They are certainly very dependable, gentle on tape and sweet sounding. But the weight of them has led me to retire them and I imagine now that I am settled on the Lyrecs the 1500s will be available to a new home soon.   
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: ironbut on March 02, 2009, 12:53:43 PM
Wow, excellent info Harold! I would imagine that even if you were unable to obtain those OEM flutter filters, John French could outfit one of the ATR/MDI teflon or even adapt one from a Sony APR-5000 series machine. He does some custom headblock work for the restoration/archivist community and the work I've seen has been first rate.
 I guess I hadn't looked closely enough at the spec sheet you provided. 25 pounds! That's super light for a machine of that pedigree. Aside from location work, sending it out for servicing ( or demos ) wouldn't be nearly as scary as it is for the heavy weights. That's a big plus!
I noticed that you have a collection of master tapes. If you don't mind me asking, were these projects you worked on or ones you've collected?
Thanks again for your contribution to our collective machine knowledge. It's always a treat to have someone from the industry give us amateurs a lesson.
BTW Nice web site!
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on March 02, 2009, 03:11:58 PM
That's a great idea about John French retrofitting scrape flutter filters. I had him do all my Technics machines and his work was superb.  I'll follow up on that.

Actually for servicing, the Lyrec's modular construction is fantastic.  I had a speed problem with one of my machines and by swapping boards etc I was finally able to isolate it to the capstan motor assembly. I pulled that and sent it off to Charles King (Stellavox) and he was able to test it in a Frida he had in his shop and isolate the problem to the optocoupler on the capstan itself.  Shipping each way was only a couple of bucks and the standard issue optocoupler is also not an expensive part. The whole job came in at far less than shipping a machine one way would have been.

As to the tape masters I have, they are classical studio and production masters from most of the major labels from the 50s through the 70s. 

And thanks for the compliments on our website. I actually recently retired from active film production, but the company still has me up there as president.  I'm now concentrating on other loves, including fine classical stereo listening and dubbing.

[email protected]
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: Brian on April 04, 2009, 08:04:58 AM
I'm new to the Forum - and also new to Lyrec ownership, having just purchased a FRED RB-04.  Anybody have a source for a manual (preferably in English)?
Also, any experiences with the FRED - particularly anyone this side of the pond that would be good to work on one?

I've been "lurking" on this forum for a while and have been impressed with both the level of technical knowledge as well as the good on-line etiquette.
I used to do motion picture sound, location classical/jazz recording, and a little facility design work but have recently focused more on audio forensics.  I look forward to helping in the forum where I can and - learning from you folks where I can't.

Brian
Title: Re: Lyrec Fred and Frida manual
Post by: hticheno on April 04, 2009, 09:26:28 AM
Hello Brian

The Fred should be great for audio forensics, which must be fascinating work.  I have sent messages to my contacts in Europe and hopefully will be able to supply you with a pdf of the manual. For those members who have Fridas and don't have manuals I now have pdf manuals for both the Frida I and II and will be happy to email whichever you need to you if you send me your email address and serial number. 

As to service for the Fred I think Charles King (Stellavox) in New York State has had one in his hands. I don't know whether he services them but I suspect they are fairly easy to work on.

Harold
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: Brian on April 04, 2009, 12:27:20 PM
Thanks Harold, I'd appreciate it.
I've also seen the FRED being used as a low cost QGB 10" reel adapter for a Nagra 4S.  Should be fun to play with.
Brian
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on April 17, 2009, 12:26:06 PM
Hi Brian

Check your email. I sent you the RB-04 manual a few minutes ago.  Let me know if it comes through all right.

Harold
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: Brian on April 17, 2009, 12:49:43 PM
Hi Harold:
Thanks!  Came through great. 
Brian
Title: Lyrec Frida parts
Post by: hticheno on August 11, 2009, 12:50:34 PM
Since my last post I have acquired a supply of parts and boards and a number of heads for the Frida I and II. In particular I came across about half a dozen time code heads from Applied Magnetics of Belgium.  These I don't need but I am always on the lookout for new playback heads from the same company. 

Harold
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: newmedia on September 01, 2009, 09:00:00 AM
Rich:

Quessing that your first FRIDA is the one (originally BBC) that I sold you, it's good to see that you are happy with the move away from Stellavox for concert recordings.  As a portable machine (albeit AC-powered) with 11" capacity, it really seems to have no equal.

I wonder what changed in the market to prompt Lyrec to go in this direction?  Clearly field recording had been working with 5"/7" reels for decades, so why did the BBC and the Swiss want to move up to 11"?  Or did they want to use the same machine in the field and the studio?  Or, did they just get tired of dealing with Nagra -- with IV-STC's in the field and TA's in the studio costing "too much"?

And, now the FRIDA is reborn for playback . . . if you can find one!

Mark Stahlman
New York City
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: Ki Choi on September 02, 2009, 10:15:42 AM
It is good to see general interests in fine reel to reel machine had greatly increased lately and some of the real experts in the field are joining the TP community to share their experiences.

Not that I need another master recorder...but having a nice Lyrec Frida in the same room as the herd of Studers and a Nagra-T Audio would round out my collection nicely...for now that is..

Ki

Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: U47 on September 02, 2009, 10:33:03 AM
Hi Mark
The Frida I bought from you was ex-BBC machine and the first one I had ever seen. I sold it to the legendary Pokemonoman. The two Lyrec Fridas I use now were purchased from Harold in Canada. One was ex-BBC and the other ex-Suisse Radio.  Harold and Charlie service my decks. Stellavox and Nagra 5/7 inch reel decks were used in the film industry, where short takes of under 15 minutes were the norm. The QGB large reel adaptor was invented by Nagra later for concert recordings. I believe Bob Auger used a Nagra with QGB for the legendary Horenstein/LSO Mahler 3rd Symphony recording on Unicorn/Nonesuch/Barclay-Crocker.

I tried 12.5 inch reels and found they don't quite fit. 12 inch fit the Frida. That can make a big difference with 1.5 mil tape in a concert setting.

I hope to make it to Seattle area in the next few weeks. Ki, if you are interested I could bring it up with me. Let me know.

Rich Brown
Acoustic Arts
Portland, Oregon

Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: ironbut on September 02, 2009, 09:07:54 PM
Just to let you guys know, I split this thread as it began to cover ground more in line with Tape Project Albums- General and looked like it would continue to do so.
Please don't look on this move as anything negative but rather it's grown into an excellent discussion of alternative formats. Questions do arise from time to time about these topics and moving it to a more appropriate venue will give those who wonder about these topics easier access.

Carry on,..
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: hticheno on September 02, 2009, 10:01:43 PM
That makes total sense.  Thanks for letting us know.

Harold
Title: Re: New Toy from Denmark- Lyrec Frida
Post by: Ki Choi on September 03, 2009, 01:56:44 PM
I hope to make it to Seattle area in the next few weeks. Ki, if you are interested I could bring it up with me. Let me know.


Hi Rich:

It woudld very nice to meet you and see the Frida in person when you are in the area.  I'll be on vacation and will return next weekend.  Let me know when you plan to be in Seattle.  We can have some food, beers and talk tape machines...what a combo!

Ki