Tape Project Forum
Tape Project Albums => Kenny Burrell & John Coltrane => Topic started by: docb on February 24, 2010, 03:23:26 PM
-
We are taking another diversion in the order that we are shipping albums vs. their catalog number. TP-014 is still in production so now that we have shipped most of the TP-011,12 13 production we are beginning to ship TP-015. The first few albums are heading out today, with more to follow over the next few weeks. You will notice a small card enclosed with your album which explains the presence of some slight dropouts in the song Lyresto. We wish to clarify that they are an artifact of the original master tape and not a cause for concern.
-
Woo Hoo!
Can't wait ta hear this one!
-
Cool!
-
what a nice surprise, TP-015 was waiting for me tonight when i got home.
it will be spinning here in the next half hour or so......
mikel
-
We are taking another diversion in the order that we are shipping albums vs. their catalog number. TP-014 is still in production so now that we have shipped most of the TP-011,12 13 production we are beginning to ship TP-015. The first few albums are heading out today, with more to follow over the next few weeks. You will notice a small card enclosed with your album which explains the presence of some slight dropouts in the song Lyresto. We wish to clarify that they are an artifact of the original master tape and not a cause for concern.
Slight dropouts on the master tape!!! I wonder what's next??? I am kinda curious why use that song if it has dropouts??? Why not leave that song off the tape???
Jay
-
Jay, if you would prefer I can edit that song from your copy before we ship it - that's one more advantage of tape over vinyl.
-
Dan,
I can do that myself if need be, I was just wondering why use it at all???
Jay
-
I'll suggest that this might be a better conversation to have after you hear the album. The song is a great one, the dropouts are as I mentioned, minor.
-
I don't know how others feel, but I appreciate the upfront manner that Dan, Paul and Michael have adopted in publishing potential issues.
Thanks,
Tom
-
Jay, if you would prefer I can edit that song from your copy before we ship it - that's one more advantage of tape over vinyl.
Jay,
i listened to reel one last night twice, including the cut 'Lyresto' which has the 'dropouts'. to my ears on the Studer it's more like a slight 'warbleing' off and on for 10 seconds or so (i'm at work and that is what i remember from last night) and not a complete dropout. i would not presume to tell someone how to feel about it; but my perspective is that it's like a badge of authenticity on an historical document. the cut is wonderful in any case and the dropout did not cause me to lose touch with the musical flow, but i did, of course, notice it.
there are other favorite tracks i play all the time with things like that which are in the master tape; such as the dropout at the beginning of 'Stardust' on Ben Webster's 'Live at the Reinnasance'...or the dropout at the beginning 'Taste of Honey' on Patricia Barber's 'Cafe Blue'. neither of those have ever caused me hesitation to repeated listening to those cuts. i have 4 or 5 different digital and analog examples of both of those cuts....the dropouts are on each one.
i actually have a master dub of one of those two examples and the dropout is there too.
understand i'm not trying to make light of this issue.
mikel
-
Well Mike,
I really wasn't trying to make a big deal of it, it's just that the LR tape had an issue that we didn't learn about until after the fact; and now this tape has dropouts. I was just wondering why they used a song with dropouts? No big deal!!!
Jay
-
I think everyone will agree, it's unfortunate that there are damages on any of the master tapes of the fantastic performances. I curse the careless soul that miss handled these tapes every time I hear a drop out. But, when I subscribed to the TP, it was to hear what the insiders, who have access to these precious tapes, hear when they play them when remastering etc..
I find these minor problems akin to a missed note by the performers. We certainly have the technology to edit these out of a recording (and it is common practice) but IMHO, that removes some of the humanity and I feel cheated. I want to hear the performer's work and not the editor's or producer's.
I agree very much with Mike's opinion regarding these flaws. Some of these recordings were made in the 1950's so they don't have long to wait before they can begin to receive Medicare. I think we're lucky that they have as few flaws as they do considering how unimportant they were considered for decades.
But, it's really about the listening experience of the music that's the bottom line for me. I'll take a slightly flawed recording of Burrell/Coltrane or Ben Webster (his playing on that album just melts me!) over just about anything else that's been done recently and might be in perfect shape.
So, when it comes down to it, it's all about the music right?
-
I'll suggest that this might be a better conversation to have after you hear the album. The song is a great one, the dropouts are as I mentioned, minor.
Well Dan,
I think that is the right thing to do but, first I still have to listen to the LR tape.
Jay
-
Jay, if you would prefer I can edit that song from your copy before we ship it - that's one more advantage of tape over vinyl.
Jay,
i listened to reel one last night twice, including the cut 'Lyresto' which has the 'dropouts'. to my ears on the Studer it's more like a slight 'warbleing' off and on for 10 seconds or so (i'm at work and that is what i remember from last night) and not a complete dropout. i would not presume to tell someone how to feel about it; but my perspective is that it's like a badge of authenticity on an historical document. the cut is wonderful in any case and the dropout did not cause me to lose touch with the musical flow, but i did, of course, notice it.
there are other favorite tracks i play all the time with things like that which are in the master tape; such as the dropout at the beginning of 'Stardust' on Ben Webster's 'Live at the Reinnasance'...or the dropout at the beginning 'Taste of Honey' on Patricia Barber's 'Cafe Blue'. neither of those have ever caused me hesitation to repeated listening to those cuts. i have 4 or 5 different digital and analog examples of both of those cuts....the dropouts are on each one.
i actually have a master dub of one of those two examples and the dropout is there too.
understand i'm not trying to make light of this issue.
mikel
Mike,
I have not even heard the tape yet so I am not saying anything about the tape itself. I am simply saying that we are being notified about an issue with another tape well after the fact!!!
Jay
-
I am disappointed on this issue on this tape to a lesser extent than I was on the LR title release.
On the one hand I share a degree of the sentiment expressed by Jay concerning the lag between the announcement of the title and the announcement of some problems with the master. This however seems unavoidable given the way in which titles are licensed; when you finally put your hands on the master itself and listen to it, and the apparent practice of no refunds if the master isn't quite what you were told you would be getting.
That has got to be an exasperating aspect of the TP business side of things which my temperament would not be able to abide.
So to Jay I would simply say that this seems to be an inherent characteristic of the 'music licensing biz'.
Sort of makes you wonder how many other remastered master recordings are out there which are quite a bit less than advertised and you will never know it.
(To the extent possible within the licensing transaction process, I would urge the TP owners to try to include a 'kick out' clause which would allow them to bail on a title which was not as advertised and get a full refund.)
I agree with some of the other posters that to the TP's credit they do adhere to full disclosure of the wonderment and the warts, the latter of which I am sure is the last thing they enjoy announcing. It is I am sure a disheartening prospect to write that email. But they do deliver the message in a straightforward manner and there is certainly something to be said for that.
But Steve, as disappointing as this news may be to some, delivers a sensible perspective; it is the music afterall. I know that Jay has emphasized that his issue is not about the music, but of the announcement timing.
Master Tape obviously does not always equate to perfect tape; that and the relative cost of a TP release to say a CD, or LP release regardless of the degree of audiophile treatment may be driving this concern for some as well. I do not wish to put words in Jay's mouth. I have lived with clicks, pops, dropouts, compression and worse of various sorts all these years, what's a little 10 second flaw on an otherwise masterpiece recording compared to years of the former? Heck if you want to talk flaws don't get me started on what I see every morning in the mirror; now you're talking flaws!
But having said that, I hear you Jay.
As Steve Winwood said in a different context, 'Ya got ta roll with it baby'
-
Well Charles thanks for the kind words and the reply, I am not really sure where to start there is alot I could say in response. I will just say that a kick out clause would be nice but, I don't see it. As for the notification I now understand a little more why these two instances happened, at the same time would love to see some type of option in the event this were to happen again!!!
Jay
-
Hello, all,
Just received my first TP album, TP-015...magnificent! It feels great to be a Tape Project subscriber and sustain such an admirable enterprise :-)
Congratulations,
Sam
-
I think everyone will agree, it's unfortunate that there are damages on any of the master tapes of the fantastic performances. I curse the careless soul that miss handled these tapes every time I hear a drop out. But, when I subscribed to the TP, it was to hear what the insiders, who have access to these precious tapes, hear when they play them when remastering etc..
I find these minor problems akin to a missed note by the performers. We certainly have the technology to edit these out of a recording (and it is common practice) but IMHO, that removes some of the humanity and I feel cheated. I want to hear the performer's work and not the editor's or producer's.
I agree very much with Mike's opinion regarding these flaws. Some of these recordings were made in the 1950's so they don't have long to wait before they can begin to receive Medicare. I think we're lucky that they have as few flaws as they do considering how unimportant they were considered for decades.
But, it's really about the listening experience of the music that's the bottom line for me. I'll take a slightly flawed recording of Burrell/Coltrane or Ben Webster (his playing on that album just melts me!) over just about anything else that's been done recently and might be in perfect shape.
So, when it comes down to it, it's all about the music right?
Yes, I was just listening to "Domino" by Van Morrison and I could hear a tape edit and a squeak in the drum kit even on my modest Thorens / Grado / Apt Holman / AKG phones rig. Of course these sorts of issues could be and regularly are fixed in pro tools today as are other flaws particularly associated with analog recording. But does it make for a better musical experience?
Perhaps if all is rendered in a high resolution format that takes nothing away from the music. I am not going to go to the extreme that all primitive recording with obvious sonic flaws is better. But fixing every flaw does not always make for the best music. Particularly when it comes to small performance glitches. I think not fixing every tiny issue makes a more accessible human quality as no live performance is completely perfect. Even a tape dropout or pop on a disc can remind you of the nature of a recording in a good way and become familiar like any part of the music. Not that these artifacts are good in and of themselves...
sorry to semi-hijack the thread