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Author Topic: Rewind, or not??  (Read 11356 times)

Offline Teeg

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Rewind, or not??
« on: February 01, 2009, 10:18:07 AM »
  Some tape users say they never rewind/FF their tapes, instead they always play them through to avoid the possibility of stretch/breakage. Others say fast winding tape is not an issue if the machine is in well form. My usually gentle 1506 broke a favorite tape while stopping from FF a while back, only time this has happened but it leaves me hesitant to fast spool anymore.

  My 440 (B version) can be rough on tapes unless 'shuttle' the controls, a practice that seems easy on paper but not so much so in practice. Spool speed on this deck is so fast that I've thought about modifying the motor circuits to cut the speed way down...just enough to move between songs at a rate maybe just a bit faster than play speed.

 Is there a general consensus among forum members on fast-winding....is it generally a non-issue, or to be avoided only with certain tapes? Is there a way to do it/not do it?

Should you stop the tape before the end runs off of the spool (insert 'flap flap flap' noise here)...?

 Maybe this can be a topic in the general topic 'beginners guide'.....

 Regards-
Tj
T.j. Bassi  
    Martin Logan reQuests....Martin Logan Descent x 2....Atma-Sphere MA1 OTL amplification....Krell KPS25s digital front end....VPI Scoutmaster....Studer A80 VU MKII....Ampex 300-2 Tube/SS Playback "Ampexius Maximus"....Ampex MR-70

Offline ironbut

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 12:36:02 PM »
Hi TJ,.. that's a tough one. There's a lot of variables here like braking strength and tension on the machine, and tape type and condition on the tape side of the equation. For the most part, breaking tapes usually happen with either old acetate tapes ( very very fragile)  or tapes that are damaged from poor long term storage. In stock form, the Technics machines brakes aren't strong enough for use with 10.5" reels and are better for 7" reels. The felt brake shoes that come stock won't grab unevenly and allow easy turning of the reels when threading the tape. when you shuttle to a stop (engage the opposite fast wind to slow before hitting stop) you're doing what the the machine does already, to a certain extent. When you hit stop, it engages dynamic braking (electronic) until the the tape slows down, then the brakes engage. You can hear this as a second click. The brakes (with whatever brake shoe material it has) need to be well adjusted so one side doesn't slow the reels faster than the other. And above that, your brakes need to slow the reels consistently and not grab. A good first start would be to clean the brake drums and then do an adjustment of the brakes. You'll need a service manual, an accurate scale, and a lot of patience to do this properly. If it hasn't been done, you may very well need some fresh brake pads too.
If you've been listening to lot of old tapes for a while and this is the first time your machine has broken a tape, there's a good chance that it's the tape itself. There's nothing you can really do about this but there's some precautions you can take. Make sure that all your old tapes have tons of leader. I'm not sure if you're a subscriber to the TP yet but the way that those tape are set up is ideal for old brittle tapes.
At the end and beginning of the tape is about a turn or two of white leader. Past that, there's a number of turns worth of blank tape. This way, when you rewind or fast forward, you'll see the leader ( I call it the warning track) that tells you when to hit stop. So, in effect, you'll never have to have the machine apply the brakes during a section that has the recording on it. Even perfectly adjusted machines can get out of whack so this makes it easy to avoid damaging any of your valuable tapes by putting any extra stress on the important part. A splicing block is an invaluable tool for anybody that collects old tapes.
Like I said, there isn't much you can do about some tapes since they may have old splices (done well enough that you don't even know they're there until they let loose) or lateral scoring from mishandling. If they're extremely valuable or one of a kind, I suggest doing or having high quality digital transfers made and minimizing playing them. One of the members here, Eric Jacobs, runs one of the very finest archiving and restoration facilities in the world and would be happy to help you if you choose to go that way.
http://www.theaudioarchive.com/
steve koto
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Offline niklasthedolphin

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 03:41:05 PM »
I have no issues with FF or RW.
Tape decks ruining tapes when FF or RW need service/adjustment.
I have no flap-flap-flap when rewinding.
I use memory flags to stop before that.
I never, or hardly ever, FF to end of tape because my choise is ?-trackers.

I have fairly fast winding speeds at 80 seconds for 3600 ft.

"dolph"

Offline Teeg

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 10:49:13 PM »
  I put around five feet of leader tape at the beginning and end of 7" reels; makes threading easy and of course is a better place to put on the brakes, unfortunately the leader sometimes passes me by and runs off of the reel, in which case only the leader takes a little tattering. The tape that broke was approx in the middle......first time it happened but then again I dont RW/FF that much, with the exception of 10" reels that I store tails out; and these are run right off of the spool, not stopped mid-tape.

  Perhaps the breakage was just a fluke. I should dig out a reel of 'junk' tape in each size and abuse 'em a little, just to get a feel for how each machine is handling the braking.

 On the Ampex decks, it seems as if you must shuttle tape controls to come to a controlled stop. Is it also a common practice on consumer decks, or was your comment that the machines do it automatically as part of the stop function?

Dolph...what machine are you running, and whats a 'memory flag'?

Thanks-
Tj
T.j. Bassi  
    Martin Logan reQuests....Martin Logan Descent x 2....Atma-Sphere MA1 OTL amplification....Krell KPS25s digital front end....VPI Scoutmaster....Studer A80 VU MKII....Ampex 300-2 Tube/SS Playback "Ampexius Maximus"....Ampex MR-70

Offline ironbut

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 12:51:29 AM »
Taking a tattering is what leader's for,.. right? I always shuttle the controls also. Getting the tape to stop right where I want it to is usually a surprise when it happens so I think that shuttling means less damaging to the tape (braking applies the most force to a length of tape). If the tape broke in the middle, it could easily have been slightly damaged at that point but it's still a drag when it happens.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline niklasthedolphin

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 05:10:21 AM »
  I put around five feet of leader tape at the beginning and end of 7" reels; makes threading easy and of course is a better place to put on the brakes, unfortunately the leader sometimes passes me by and runs off of the reel, in which case only the leader takes a little tattering. The tape that broke was approx in the middle......first time it happened but then again I dont RW/FF that much, with the exception of 10" reels that I store tails out; and these are run right off of the spool, not stopped mid-tape.

  Perhaps the breakage was just a fluke. I should dig out a reel of 'junk' tape in each size and abuse 'em a little, just to get a feel for how each machine is handling the braking.

 On the Ampex decks, it seems as if you must shuttle tape controls to come to a controlled stop. Is it also a common practice on consumer decks, or was your comment that the machines do it automatically as part of the stop function?

Dolph...what machine are you running, and whats a 'memory flag'?

Thanks-
Tj


Memory flags are for more moderne decks.
It's definated points in the counters memory like "back to zero" or "back to last".
These will take the tape to the point defined, winding and breaking automatically.
Very precisely it will take you there.

Leader tapes is obviously needed on all tapes IMHO.
But five feet?
Well maybe. Why not?

When wanting a specific spot without flags, I have to shuttle tape controls as well.
With flags it does it automatically.
No machines is designed to stop instantly due to the fragile tapes.

But I believe machines has been made where you can say "go to counter point XX minutes XX seconds".
But this function might not be as welcome as cue and variable winding speed.
Those are on the Lyrec Frida, which is the deck I use.

"dolph"

Offline Teeg

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 05:04:25 PM »
  I dont think I've ever actually tried shuttling the tape on my 1506. Seems kinda scary, jogging the controls from one fast direction to the other, but sounds like its common practice........

 I do it on my 440 deck, but that machine has a different feel to it at the controls. Its also possible to spool an *entire* reel onto the floor with that deck before you realize what is happening.

 How does shuttling work mechanically? I guess the brakes are not active at this point, just changing which motor is holding back torque...or something?


Tj
T.j. Bassi  
    Martin Logan reQuests....Martin Logan Descent x 2....Atma-Sphere MA1 OTL amplification....Krell KPS25s digital front end....VPI Scoutmaster....Studer A80 VU MKII....Ampex 300-2 Tube/SS Playback "Ampexius Maximus"....Ampex MR-70

Offline niklasthedolphin

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 05:08:11 PM »
  I dont think I've ever actually tried shuttling the tape on my 1506. Seems kinda scary, jogging the controls from one fast direction to the other, but sounds like its common practice........

 I do it on my 440 deck, but that machine has a different feel to it at the controls. Its also possible to spool an *entire* reel onto the floor with that deck before you realize what is happening.

 How does shuttling work mechanically? I guess the brakes are not active at this point, just changing which motor is holding back torque...or something?


Tj

I guess I misunderstood then.

I'm certainly not pressing FF and Rewind several times after each other.
I use only one direction and stop.

"dolph"

Offline Teeg

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Re: Rewind, or not??
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 05:22:38 PM »
  On the older Ampex decks its done by jogging between the two to control the tape speed. As explained here:

http://recordist.com/ampex/docs/histapx/tape-shuttling.html

 Easier said than done, at least from my efforts. It also notes that 'modern' machines do the shuttling for you when pressing stop. I havent noticed that on my Technics deck, but a previous post mentions a second 'click' in the stop process that I am going to listen for.

Tj
T.j. Bassi  
    Martin Logan reQuests....Martin Logan Descent x 2....Atma-Sphere MA1 OTL amplification....Krell KPS25s digital front end....VPI Scoutmaster....Studer A80 VU MKII....Ampex 300-2 Tube/SS Playback "Ampexius Maximus"....Ampex MR-70