Tape Project Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jcmusic on April 27, 2008, 07:52:45 AM

Title: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on April 27, 2008, 07:52:45 AM
It seems to me that there is not enough disscusions on this site, of course this is just my opinion. I wish we had more people talking to each other here, exchanging tips habits ideas and what not. Maybe it is just me, but I look forward to reading you guys post problem is there just aren't any on a daily basis. Hopefully we can pickup the pace a little so guys like me can learn a little more, thanks.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: cam3xl on April 27, 2008, 10:57:11 AM
Well, I think that part of the issue is that we just don't have quite as many members as some other audio boards where there is constant conversation.  less than 100 or so registered (correct me if I'm wrong Doc).  Fewer folks + specific topic (TP) = meaningful, but fewer threads.  We tend to be really focused here and many of the names here I recognized from other boards where we tend to do some of our broader geekin' out.  I have the same problem over at the Planar asylum.  If we didn't argue about the merits of one mod in particular, you could go for days without a new post.

With all that being said, if you start an interesting thread, you will get answers.  Because we are a small group, I think everyone kinda checks on all new messages.  Keep the faith.

Bhek
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on April 27, 2008, 03:18:06 PM
Well that's what I am or was trying to do, stir the pot a little if you would. I agree with you and do understand as I am a member of a few other forums too. Thanks for your insight I just look forward to reading post here about TP tapes and other members gear.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: ironbut on April 27, 2008, 04:38:23 PM
The posts seem to come in waves around here. The time that folks can spend with their machines generally leads to the questions that really take off. And, just like in other forums, things like Spring break, holidays and tax time put a limit on spare time and money.
I'd like to think that some of the questions that were asked and answered in the past are being found with careful use of the search feature. And I seem to be receiving more emails with specific questions from the members here ( I welcome others to do so, just remember that I'm just another member here so specific inquiries regarding the TP should be addressed to Doc, Paul, Michael or Eileen).
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jgbeam on April 27, 2008, 07:13:29 PM
Good point, Jay.  I'm one of the lurkers who is just sitting back waiting for you other guys to keep things interesting.  Well, now that my headblock is at JRF Magnetics for relapping and my machine is on a UPS truck bound for the west coast and docB's magic, I guess I should throw in my 2 cents from time to time. 

What pushed into the upgrade path was the Dave Alvin tape.  No way was I going to spend $1200 for six tapes of music that I wasn't nuts about (except for the Oistrakh) after listening to the respective CD's, but one of the members got a few others to chip in on a group subscription and I found $400 an easier nut to swallow.  So I went for the Alvin and the Oistrakh.  Now, my machine is a Technics 1500 that I got on ebay for $300 - the front panel has some cosmetic damage but it works just fine.  So I cued up the CD and started the Alvin tape with volume down.  When the meters started to jump, I began listening to the CD for a couple of minutes then switched the output to the tape.  BAM!  Where did all that music come from?  I was stunned at the difference.  I sat in amazement for the rest of the reel, switching back to the CD occasionally to be sure I was really hearing what I was hearing.  I never played the second reel.  Next day, I took a close look at my heads - didn't want to be damaging that valuable tape!  It's hard to get a real good look, but they looked a bit worn, based on some of the info on JRF's site and others.  Now I'm thinkin', if the music sounds that good with worn, and probably misaligned, heads and the wrong equalization and a substandard internal preamp, how much better can it get with all those things corrected?  A lot better, I'm thinkin'. 

After a few email exchanges with docB and John French, I'm convinced.  Do it!  So I done it.  And now I'm totally hooked.  A budding tapehead.  A new adventure for this old analog dude.  Life is good!

Jim Grant
East Coast
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on April 27, 2008, 08:50:55 PM
Yea!!!!!!! way to go Jim, I could not agree with your more. I hope everything works out for you and your deck. Thanks for posting your opinion as well.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: Tubes n tapes on April 27, 2008, 10:11:42 PM
Well since we are stirring the pot.
With 16 R2R's, not counting anything that doesn't take 10.5" reels you could say that I'm more than a bit of a tape dude. Increase that with the fact that my top machine is a Studer A810 with full tube playback electronics and I think I am in a pretty decent position to judge the performance of analog tape.  And it has to be said it sounds absolutely marvelous! Especially playing some of the TP and Quinton tapes.

On the other hand I also have CD playback that meets the performance of the very best digital playback you can get in today's market. With a modern mastered CD the audio performance of that gets real close to that of the very best tapes I have.

What I want to say is that if someone's standard RS1500, or any other standard R2R machine for that reason, outperforms his CD playback, there is a much higher urgency to seriously upgrade ones CD playback. All the absolute fantastic recordings you are missing that are available on CD. After that there is always time to start cleaning up your R2R playback.

Arian.

Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jgbeam on April 28, 2008, 05:24:25 AM

What I want to say is that if someone's standard RS1500, or any other standard R2R machine for that reason, outperforms his CD playback, there is a much higher urgency to seriously upgrade ones CD playback. All the absolute fantastic recordings you are missing that are available on CD. After that there is always time to start cleaning up your R2R playback.

Arian.



Good point, Arian.  My CD player is not high end (Oppo DV-970HD) but has been favorably reviewed in the press.  I thought it sounded pretty good.  Other than a brief time with the fabled Philips SACD1000 before it tanked, I've never had what one would regard as a "high end" CD machine.  How much, would you opine, would one have to spend on digital playback to equal a stock RS1500?

Jim
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: docb on April 28, 2008, 10:53:04 PM
For the record, the current member count is 207. Paul has expressed that it might be useful if folks who are lurking introduce themselves here, as someone suggested early on in the lifetime of the forum. This will get more interesting info out there with which to stimulate some conversation.

I'm second most prolific poster behind ironbut, and I have started more topics and logged more time on the forum than anyone. My advice to you guys who are frustrated at the low level of participation is keep making more contributions of your own and hope that others will follow suit.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: Tubes n tapes on April 29, 2008, 12:52:28 AM
Quote
How much, would you opine, would one have to spend on digital playback to equal a stock RS1500?

Not that much, because a stock RS1500 doesn't sound that good, really. It sounds muddy and has a very flat soundstage. A good deal on a budget CD player would be the 'Njoe Tjoeb' (not because I'm Dutch). For something around $600 it gives you some real music. It falls under the category of CD players that don't fully get rid of the digital glare, but add some pleasant 'tube gravy'. From that point of view it does about the same as a ModWright, but for only a fraction of the cost.

I'm sure that there are a number of other sub $1000 CD players that can easily outperform a stock RS1500, because it really doesn't take that much.

In all cases the end result is obviously never better than the quality of the recording/mastering. Most 1984 CD masterings won't sound even half decent on a $20,000 CD player, but many 21st century masterings will sound very good on a player like the Njoe Tjoeb or something along those lines, and absolutely stunning on a state of the art player.
 
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on April 29, 2008, 07:20:00 AM
I fully agree, I have a Njoe Tjoeb 4000 with the upsampler and I think it sounds great. It is a very analogue sounding CDP in my opinion. With the ability to roll a number of tubes you can custom the sound somewhat to your taste.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: docb on April 29, 2008, 08:35:39 AM
I'm not sure that I'm going so far as to agree that a stock RS1500 is so bad that a budget CD player will outdo it, but I do agree with Arian that the dominant characteristic of the stock RS1500 playback electronics is "muddy".

The Njoe Tjoeb is a nice sounding player. Some tube circuits may sand off the gritty corners a bit, but it's often more of an after-the-fact method of removing fatigue than some more direct approaches like going to a music server to reduce the read errors and jitter and using the best DAC you can. Since I use tube gear throughout I find that taking the signal directly from the DAC chip is more effective than adding a tube buffer. It really depends upon the system.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on April 29, 2008, 10:12:33 AM
Let me clarify my statememnt, I ment that I agree about the CDP. I have no idea what the RS 1500 sounds like.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: Tubes n tapes on April 29, 2008, 11:09:35 AM
Dan's remarks on the tube buffer method used by many CD player manufacturers are very true. I often call it 'digital sound with tube gravy'. The Njoe Tjoeb certainly falls into that category, but for a budget player like that I think it is allowed. It gives you a pleasant analog sound even though that may not necessarily be a true representation of what's on the CD. However, there are also many CD players that do exactly the same at 10 times the price tag. I don't think that's acceptable.

Coupling the tubes directly to the DAC chips is indeed the only way to go. In my tube DAC I've been able to do that to the extend that the analog signal only exists in the tube domain. Pretty much all digital artifact dissappear in that case, except for some of the small inherent limitations of the CD format. Nowadays, those limitations are incredibly less audible than I had ever dare to imagine 20 years ago.

Again, everything stands or falls by the quality of the recording and the mastering. Almost all the real improvements in CD sound quality are thanks to the vast improvements on the recording and mastering side, which now allows the bring out the full capabilities of the CD format. And those are even for an analog tape freak like myself pretty phenomenal.



Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on April 29, 2008, 11:45:11 AM
Hey Tubes, I am with that especially the part about the money. I do have a seperate tube DAC that I will use from time to time, but with it tube choices are extremely limited. Hence the Njoe Tjoeb sees more action.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: mikel on April 29, 2008, 09:53:18 PM
Well since we are stirring the pot.

What I want to say is that if someone's standard RS1500, or any other standard R2R machine for that reason, outperforms his CD playback, there is a much higher urgency to seriously upgrade ones CD playback. All the absolute fantastic recordings you are missing that are available on CD. After that there is always time to start cleaning up your R2R playback.

Arian.



Arian,

i must disagree with you assuming i read your comment correctly. i think you are saying that any stock RTR deck has lower overall performance than good CD playback. Format comparisons and a desire to discover exactly how good RTR performance can get is what pulled me into RTR.

I have a stock RS-1500 and i would say on 15ips tapes i have it does most musical things similar but different than my SOTA EMM Labs CDSD SE and DAC6 SE. the RS-1500 is more 'continuous' and 'life-like'......the EMM combo has more dynamics and does space better.

I also have a stock ATR-102 which is clearly better than the EMM Labs combo when playing those same 15ips tapes. OTOH neither RTR is in the league of vinyl in my system.......yet. once i get into the repro electronics we will see......

there is simply lots more data on a good 15ips tape than any consumer digital format. even though the digital does many things well it misses the 'whole picture' to some degree. it's those damn gaps!

just trying to do my part to stir it up a bit.

Mike
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: ironbut on April 29, 2008, 10:48:32 PM
Man, if I had a nickel for every high $$$ digital disc system owner who needed assistance removing their jaw from the floor after listening to my TP rig,.. I've been demoing the TP tapes for a year now,(wow, can that be right?) and I naturally pay attention to the reactions of folks that have what I consider to be top drawer gear. Several with EMM gear and the latest was the APL NWO player that 6 Moons is falling all over themselves praising. The owner had heard my rig a few times before and wanted to hear it in his system. People had been listening to the NWO for several hours and I couldn't say from listening to unfamiliar music if it was better than the EMM CDSD/DAC 6 that he used to have. Then I hooked my Technics/Repo Amp up and people started to OOh and AHH and running to get their buddies to check it out. I played the Robert Cray cut (the newer demo tape so kindly loaned to me by Paul) for the owner of the NWO. It didn't take long before he looked at me and said "that's it". I knew exactly what he meant by "it". Unfortunately, the designer/builder of the NWO was there too and heard all the commotion. He wasn't real happy that his creation became an "also ran" . You could tell he was waiting for folks to fawn over his genius.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: dwilawyer on April 29, 2008, 11:36:49 PM
For the record, the current member count is 207. Paul has expressed that it might be useful if folks who are lurking introduce themselves here, as someone suggested early on in the lifetime of the forum.

Well so much for introducing ourselves, which was a great idea by the way.  The thread has sunk into one of those golden ear arguments that people can tell the difference between a $1,000 CD player and a $10,000 one.  I own a high end Esoteric transport and D/A converter and would venture to say that no one on this forum, even the professionals, could tell the difference between a good $1.000 CD player and a $20,000 one in a blind A/B test.  I am willing to put my player on the line to prove the point.  All you need to play is to put up a Studer or ATR 102 and every piece of tape you own. 

Travis
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: Tubes n tapes on April 29, 2008, 11:57:20 PM
Ahh.. spicy discussions. I guess that is what Jay wanted to achieve when he started this thread.

When I mentioned the standard RS1500 and other standard R2Rs, I should have said 'other standard consumer R2Rs', because my statement indeed would not be true for many of the professional Ampex, Studer and Telefunken machines.

With all respect for the RS1500 (mechanically that is), the standard unit makes a pretty sloppy copy of the original feed. People may like those colorations, which is fine, but you cannot say it sounds 'good' as in a good reproduction of the original.  Ironbutt's modified and 'tubified' RS1500 is obviously in a very different league than the standard RS1500.

I take my analog tape very seriously, but the same goes for my digital playback. I'm very familiar with the EMM combo, which performs extremely well on (multi channel) SACD. On redbook CD it doesn't justify its price tag.

What we are missing is an honest comparison. A modern recording that is mastered both in analog and in current state of the art digital. That would be real interesting because a properly dithered modern digital mastering doesn't have any 'holes' in the information flow.

I'm in no way trying to undermine our tape hobby, but my engineering side is always keeping track of the objective side.



Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jgbeam on April 30, 2008, 07:22:11 AM
The CD vs rtr topic is interesting, but since there will only be 10 TP tapes per year, and maybe a few Quinton tapes, it would also be interesting to discuss the improvement a Tape Project machine might produce on playback of commercial issue 7.5 or 3.75 ips tapes, of which there is an abundant supply on ebay.  I have seen very few comments addressing this.  Would it not be similar to recent improvements in vinyl playback of 40 year old pressings?  What potential is there in these old tapes? There will never be a source of new consumer rtr machines, but there seems to be plenty of old ones out there that could be upgraded, if not to TP standards, at least to higher standards than the original machine.

Jim Grant
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on April 30, 2008, 10:01:39 AM
Ahh.. spicy discussions. I guess that is what Jay wanted to achieve when he started this thread.

Well not exactly, but close. I did not intend to start a war of sorts, but just wanted to spice up the participation a little. Things seemed to be a little slow and I am still trying to learn more about our hobby.
I hope I did not offend anyone, that was not my intention. Although this is an interesting thread I am more interested in the tape and machine aspect, than the CDP vs whatever. In my opinion my CDP sounds more than adequate for me, now if I can get my tape to sound better than my vinyl rig; that would be outstanding.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: Tubes n tapes on April 30, 2008, 10:53:25 AM
Quote
it would also be interesting to discuss the improvement a Tape Project machine might produce on playback of commercial issue 7.5 or 3.75 ips tapes,

Jim,

In my article of how to convert a B77/PR99 to a TP machine on the LAOCAS webpage http://laocaudiosociety.net/tech.html, I'm including a few simple but very effective improvements in the playback electronics that would also be valid for every other speed or track arrangement you would want to use.

The total modification as described in the article optimises the machine for both TP tapes and standard 7.5 ips NAB tapes.

Depending of how good your vinyl playback is, this may get you a long way in matching or exceeding it on a very modest budget.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jgbeam on April 30, 2008, 01:17:27 PM

Jim,

In my article of how to convert a B77/PR99 to a TP machine on the LAOCAS webpage http://laocaudiosociety.net/tech.html, I'm including a few simple but very effective improvements in the playback electronics that would also be valid for every other speed or track arrangement you would want to use.


Arian,

That paper is so clearly written and illustrated that I would be tempted to make such a mod if I had the machine for it.  I have an early A77 but it appears that it is not a good upgrade candidate.  I'll leave things well enough alone and let doc do his thing on the RS1500.  Thank you for the advice.

Jim Grant
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: docb on April 30, 2008, 03:46:52 PM
Quote
What we are missing is an honest comparison. A modern recording that is mastered both in analog and in current state of the art digital. That would be real interesting because a properly dithered modern digital mastering doesn't have any 'holes' in the information flow.

We went a step further than that with Jacqui's recording. It was recorded simultaneously in high res digital and to a 2" 16 track A827. The digital recording was mastered in the digital realm and became The Color Five CD. The tape was mastered in analog and went onto The Number White.

I also have an 15 ips analog transfer of the high res digital master.

I'll let you guess what I prefer.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: Tubes n tapes on April 30, 2008, 04:16:51 PM
Very interesting. That is actually one of two TP albums I do not have on CD as well, while that must be one of the best analog/digital comparison items available. I'll get it right away.

I assume the analog and digital multi tracks are identical, from an input point of view that is. Are the mixes substantially different?
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: docb on April 30, 2008, 05:01:10 PM
Actually the mixes on many songs are different because a lot of overdubs on the digital were done in different locations. We did new overdubs in a single studio session, onto the 2" for the Number White. And there's also a few different songs on each album. At least a song or two are straight from the tracking session on both albums. Michael would remember what's what. I'm gonna guess maybe Blue Moon is the same take on both. Unfortunately Here's to Life on Color Five is a take from a different session than the one on Number White.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: ironbut on April 30, 2008, 06:26:51 PM
Hey you guys, this thread's on fire! Good to see a little spirited debate (especially when we're all in the same choir). Regarding the 1/4 track 7.5 ips prerecorded tapes, I'm working on getting the most from these. Anyone who knows my track record won't be holding their breath. I'm real slow when it comes to these things. But, I don't give up very easily either.I won't go into details here, but for now I feel confident that the playback of better older tapes will be equal to or slightly better than a good vinyl set up. And I think whether it is equal/slightly better will depend a lot on what you listen for.
Before the Tape Project I was a vinyl guy. But, I have to admit that the sound of the better CD/SACD and 24/96 (DVD-A or downloads) has come a long way. Maybe it was the decades of defending vinyl (when CD's were just awful) but just a hint of digital glare is all it takes to send me running for an lp. So, considering this bias, I won't be making comparisons to digital formats anytime soon.
So, keep an eye out for a long, rambling post in the Prerecorded Tapes forum this summer.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jgbeam on May 01, 2008, 03:49:25 PM
I guess the fire's out.  Didn't want the day to pass without a single post on the forum.  Nothing to add - just wondering how much better "Way Out West", now spinning on my $149 Oppo DVD-970HD, would sound on a kilobuck CD player, or. better yet, on a TP mastered tape on a TP upgraded RS1500.  Sounds pretty good on the Oppo, though.  Can't hide great music completely no matter what your gear is.

Jim Grant
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: ironbut on May 01, 2008, 04:15:02 PM
I don't have the CD but, the Analog Productions lp is one of the best they've done. Awesome bass sound!
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: mikel on May 01, 2008, 09:25:04 PM
I guess the fire's out.  Didn't want the day to pass without a single post on the forum.  Nothing to add - just wondering how much better "Way Out West", now spinning on my $149 Oppo DVD-970HD, would sound on a kilobuck CD player, or. better yet, on a TP mastered tape on a TP upgraded RS1500.  Sounds pretty good on the Oppo, though.  Can't hide great music completely no matter what your gear is.

Jim Grant

'Way Out West' on the AP SACD played on the EMM Labs SE combo is excellent. The AP 33rpm reissue is a good deal better in every way. the AP 45RPM Lp is on another level entirely as is the 45rpm Lp test pressing. i agree Steve that the bass on this recording is particularly articulate and this recording is overall an excellent recording with outstanding clarity and a low noise floor. a great demo disc for sure in any format.

i would love to have the opportunity to play a TP version and compare.
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jgbeam on May 02, 2008, 06:53:07 AM
Just in case anyone missed it, this 2002 Stereophile interview with Roy DuNann, the recording engineer on WOW, is fascinating reading. 

Jim Grant
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jgbeam on May 02, 2008, 06:57:43 AM
This might help. :)

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/402roy/index.html
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on May 02, 2008, 08:09:39 AM
Sonny Rollins is one of my favorites, I have the Way Out West AP 45 rpm Lp it is very good to say the least. I don't have anything to compare it to at this time.

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: xcortes on May 02, 2008, 08:54:14 AM
Cool thread guys!

Although I'm not as qualified as you to discuss format differences I do agree that the stock RS1500 sounds mudded, I love the term. But couple it to a Seduction and it sounds fantastic, even without Doc's mods which I expect to take it to another level.

I have only heard Way out West on the $9.00 OJC reissue and like it very much. I use a Garrard 301 turntable with an EMT tonearm and cartridge (tondose) coupled via a pair of rare Peerless 4797 stepups to, what else, a Seduction.

In relation to digital I use an iPod. Actually is an iPod modified by Vinnie Rossi to take the signal directly out of the DAC. If you think about it it has all the advantages of a server: a hard disk reducing the reading problems and jitter and has the benefits of battery power. I only use tubed outputs (Bottlehead Foreplay, BH Sex and recently also a hybrid headphone pre by Pete Millet that sounds really nice).

Quote
I took a close look at my heads - didn't want to be damaging that valuable tape!  It's hard to get a real good look, but they looked a bit worn, based on some of the info on JRF's site and others.

This reminds me I have to buzz Doc and discuss what to do with mine. I have been very distracted with other parts of the stereo, namely the amps that will triamp my speakers, but I guess it's time to revisit my deck.

Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: jcmusic on May 02, 2008, 11:24:41 AM
xcortes I would be interested in getting my ipod modded, can you give some info or contact info for Vinne?

Jay
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: xcortes on May 02, 2008, 11:44:31 AM
There you go:

http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod.html (http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod.html)
Title: Re: Disscusions
Post by: ironbut on May 02, 2008, 06:26:48 PM
Cool thread guys!

I have only heard Way out West on the $9.00 OJC reissue and like it very much. I use a Garrard 301 turntable with an EMT tonearm and cartridge (tondose) coupled via a pair of rare Peerless 4797 stepups to, what else, a Seduction.

This reminds me I have to buzz Doc and discuss what to do with mine. I have been very distracted with other parts of the stereo, namely the amps that will triamp my speakers, but I guess it's time to revisit my deck.



Man, I bet that record sounds great on your 301! I wonder how much they'd have to pay Sonny to wear that hat and six guns today!
I was following your post over on the BH forum with the problems you were having.  That's pretty wacky that your area has just enough mains difference to screw gear up. I'm glad you got it all straightened out. I was on the edge of my (geeky) seat wondering what it might have been. I can see where the studios got the idea that reality TV would be a hit.