Tape Project Forum

General Category => Prerecorded Tapes => Topic started by: ironbut on May 28, 2007, 08:38:06 PM

Title: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on May 28, 2007, 08:38:06 PM
Hey, this forum is Way too quiet! I don't expect you guys to give up your secret sources to the whole world, but I get pretty excited when I get a really, really great sounding tape. And when I get something cool, I like to share it with others who can appreciate it. And, let face it folks, that's a pretty select few.  I've been collecting BC's for a while and have quite a few now. I've found them to be in exceptional condition compared to other labels that I've gotten. I think that most of the people who took the time to buy them took better care of them. Most of them come with the boxes in good condition and the tape ends secured. One tip to keep them nice is to put the boxes in slip-covers. There's a guy on ebay that I get them from http://cgi.ebay.com/100-REEL-BOX-REUSABLE-Protection-Sleeves-R-J-100-Rk_W0QQitemZ300114194612QQihZ020QQcategoryZ618QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/100-REEL-BOX-REUSABLE-Protection-Sleeves-R-J-100-Rk_W0QQitemZ300114194612QQihZ020QQcategoryZ618QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)They are $15 for a bag of 100 and work great (maybe a little slippery when your trying to stack them). I've been slowly going through all my BC's to put leader on them and grade the sound quality. I'll try and post the ones that IMHO are must haves.
Virgil Thomson- Suite from " The River"/The Plow that Broke the Plains
Jean Sibelius-Kyllikki/Three Sonatinas/Sonata inF Major
Shostakovich-Symphony #13
Respighi-Ancheint Airs & Dances
Ravel-Le Tombeau De Couperin  Stravinsky-Pulcinella Suite
The BC catalog I have highlights many of the tapes. No less than 144 have quotes from reviews of either the tapes themselves or the lp release. I don't know how many of you have a copy of a catalog but I'm Not going to list them here. If you'd like a copy of my copy, PM me and I'll get one out to you. I'll list more of my fav's later. I'd love to hear what yours are though.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: Danny Kaey on May 29, 2007, 08:51:08 AM
yep, everything "he" said! :)
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: scully280 on May 29, 2007, 10:44:31 PM
In addition to the above worthy titles how 'bout Vanguard Morton Gould Latin American Symphonette? (B-side Gottschalk OK, but not at all as dynamic).  I've always been partial to the Unicorn Horenstein Mahler 3rd, but some of my enthusiasm is for the sound.  It was one of the first 8-track mastered classical recordings, and the BC tape sounds way better than the discs, either imported, Nonesuch or HNH.

I like the Teldec Concentus Musicus Bach Brandenburgs for natural stereo, I like the DG Abbado Prokoviev Alexander Nevsky for being big, and  then there's the Philips Debussy Images with Haitink, again natural.  The Philips Dukas disc with Zinman isn't bad either.  There's plenty to like in that catalog.

Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on May 30, 2007, 06:28:41 PM
I think the Gould was used by TDP at CES and I can see why. I don't have the Mahler or the Dukas but the others are fantastic. One of my fav. Debussy is the Music for Two Harps tape. It's definitely on the other end of the spectrum but Demo worthy IMHO none the less. The interplay of the 2 harps is so delicate, it sounds like a soft breeze could break the spell. The Debussy & Ravel string quartet tape sounds ok but I was really hoping for a more dynamic performance. I heard the Julliard Quartet do it in concert once and I think it kind of spoiled me for other interpretations.Thanks , I'll keep an eye out for those 2.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: High and Outside on May 30, 2007, 07:38:05 PM
In addition to the above worthy titles how 'bout Vanguard Morton Gould Latin American Symphonette?

I have one, count 'em one, Barclay Crocker, and that's the one. Doc sent it to me so I could see how one of these 7-1/2 ips pre-records would sound once we got one of our machines up and running. I still haven't spun it once. And I don't know what I'm going to do about Dolby. I have every flavor of professional Dolby plus DBX and even Telcom around the studio. Hell, I even have two channels of half-speed Dolby A. But I don't have any Dolby B.

Anyway, at least I know that if I ever get around to this, I've got one of the good ones.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: docb on May 30, 2007, 10:35:50 PM
I never listened to it either. Sounds like you guys need to list those Dobly Bs you've been meaning to get rid of on ebay this week. I promise not to bid against Paul. I hear he has some space opening up in his storage...
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: classicrecordings on June 01, 2007, 09:02:40 AM
I've always been partial to the Unicorn Horenstein Mahler 3rd, but some of my enthusiasm is for the sound.  It was one of the first 8-track mastered classical recordings, and the BC tape sounds way better than the discs, either imported, Nonesuch or HNH.

Granted, I have spent a lot more on each of my various turntables than any single 4 track tape machine I have ever owned, but I have not been completely won over to the sound of 4 track tapes when they have been compared to their vinyl counterparts.

But, based on this discussion, I'm getting the idea that the BC's are the way to go for later 4 track releases. I have to say that I have always been turned off by the idea of dolby B and DBX. I have always felt that adding another piece of equipment in the signal path will degrade the sound as much as any benefit that will be gained by adding it, thereby ultimately changing the sound, and not necessarily improving it.

So what is the overall sense of the BC tapes compared to duplicates by Bel Canto, RCA, Columbia, Ampex and others? Were the BC's the best duplicates for later 4 track releases? Were there any benefits to these processed tapes over the standard non-processed tape releases?

TIA, David
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on June 01, 2007, 08:58:26 PM
Anyone that's tried to find a transparent Dolby B decoder will instantly agree with your "turn off". For the most part, I don't use one when I listen to my BC tapes. I know,.. the top end is tipped up a bit and the tape hiss is very present, but my ears get used to it and until I can get one going that doesn't add or take away too much ( my Integrex is pretty close) that's how it will stay. Regarding BC tapes, they were made to a higher standard than the "big" record companies offerings. The tapes are all on 1 mil tape of pretty good quality and were dup'ed at 4:1 which is much lower than the high speed dup's that are the norm. There were over 300 BC's in the catalog. These performances are hand picked and while I don't always agree with the choices made, overall, they are excellent. A case in point; I love Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. I even have a record that a friend had cut in San Francisco for my 25th birthday present of a famous 78rpm. BC's recording with Ozawa is easily the best sounding recording I've ever heard. Because of the extreme dynamics on this tape, it is only recorded in one direction ( there's a few done this way). But,.. it just doesn't do it for me. But man,.. the dynamics! I'd say that 10-15% are like that. But, at least they sound great.
In practical terms, as my original post indicated, the tapes are in better shape period! Out of about 100 only one has a splice, periodic drop outs and balance problems. There are a few that have slight problems at the end of the second side ( if only they'd splice in some leader!) but nothing serious. So, consistency is BC's biggest selling points for me. I have a few Londons and I'm a fan of Solti/Chicago. These can sound just as good as your above average BC.But, I've got 3 copies of Solti's Symphony Fantastique and I'm still looking for a good one. This is an extreme example because I have lots of good sounding problem free Londons.  I've also had ones that were great at first and then, upon repeated plays, the sound degraded. Same thing with Phillips and Columbia. Finding a minty Dave Brubeck Take 5 is another quest. The last one I had just sounded fantastic  except the first track( one of my fav's on the album) was almost entirely erased along with the last 8 bars or so on side 2! That tape sounds sooo good though, I almost kept it.
Aside from BC, I've tried to concentrate on Mercury. I have a few very old Mercury 2 tracks and they sound great. None of the ones that I have so far are dolby encoded. They're made by Ampex just like the Londons and Phillips but they "seem" to stand up better to the ravages of time. Perhaps a case of the owners care again though. Maybe Mercury spec'ed a different tape formula. I don't know, but I've got a couple whose boxes are very worn but the tape still sounds great.
There's nothing like getting a tape of a performance that you really love but, if you're compelled to have a balanced collection of classical music, you'd be hard pressed to find a better catalog of competent performances.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: scully280 on June 03, 2007, 08:43:03 PM
I've been picking up a few 2-tracks out of curiosity, and that acetate tape, if it was wound correctly has aged quite well.  I remember from my teens when polyester tape came out and was touted as so superior, but the older Scotch 111 class of tape on 2-track releases regardless of the maker has really stood the test of time, again as long as it was wound properly.  A few Living Stereo's in 2-track tape are quite magic.

I don't enjoy Ampex 4-track stuff much 'cause their non-Dolby stuff compensates for the noisy 4-track format with some pretty aggressive high-end equalization that's hard to eq back out.  They even have a bit of hi boost in Dolby tapes, though less, in general.   BC was much closer to flat than any previous tape vendor.

In my self-appointed role as know-it-all here's an odd tidbit.  The BC Mercury Ancient Airs and Dances notes that they used a new mix from the original 3-track master.  And indeed it's a bit different than the Wilma Cozart supervised CD re-mix version.  I don't have an original Mercury LP so I don't know what the baseline is, but the BC, especially in headphones isn't so super-stereo with everything bunched up extreme right or extreme left, and I like it better than the CD re-issue.  Haven't compared it to the any other releases either like the SACD or the Speaker's Corner LP.  Other weird stuff.  Early tapes were dubbed 4:1.  For some reason some sort of 180Hz buzz in the duplicator gets translated down to a noticeable 45Hz.  That's not there in the later 8:1 tapes, well actually it's just pushed an octave lower where my speakers and headphones don't respond much at all.  Sometimes on the European masters the specta show 50Hz at a very low level, but at least I know that's not my equipment.

I agree that Dolby units are a problem, even the pro units.  The most common pro-unit on e-bay is the Dolby Labs model 330 which as aimed at cassettes and has a very steep low-pass filter at about 17KHz.  One of these days I'll get around to taking one of these apart and trying to bypass the filter and tinker with the amps and capacitors, but until then I use it as-is.  I don't think you can really get the true sense of the tapes without listening to some of them in Dolby B because of the dynamic filter effect.  The dynamic range just seems to much more natural with the inverse dynamics of Dolby-B playback.

And as far as BC being better than LP's or other tape, I dunno.  It really depended on what kind of equipment you had, TT and cartridge or tape deck.  By and large LP's, especially since I now have much better playback equipment, often have an edge.  But like all things, tapes are a product of the times.  LP's were mass-produced, and as the 70's began, mostly by large corporations, run by bean-counters.  That meant lots of pops and ticks, and basically lot's of lousy sounding disks.  Sure you could find imports or special issues, but tapes solved a lot of the manufacturing problems that were inherent in LP's.  Classic Recordings or Speaker's Corner LP's are made essentially by hand in small batches with a religious approach to quality, cottage industry stuff, so they sound great.  Barclay Crocker was ahead of them making tapes, not LP's by hand in small batches with the same religious zeal, so they were just a little ahead of the LP renaissance, but doing it with tape.


Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on June 24, 2007, 10:55:02 AM
Thanks Scully280,.. yeah, I've gotta get on upgrading my Dolby unit too. Those Speakers Corner Mercurys are super though. Especially the Shostakovich sym #5 and the Debussy Nocturnes!
BTW how did it go with that Tape Op want ad? I've never bought anything from it and I'd be interested in how it went.
Back to BC's though,..
Another couple of tapes I'd like to mention
Bruckner Requiem- The sound on this is just wonderful. If your not familiar with the piece, it's one of those " cast of thousands" productions. If you like well recorded choral/orchestral this is a must have. The organ comes blasting through like a freight train at a crossing when the chorus is silenced. Huge soundstage! What more do you want?
Chopin 24 Preludes Ivan Moravec piano-The piano sound on this tape is as good as I've heard. Lots of weight from the left hand and sparkle from the right. There's enough on stage incidentals to satisfy the detail freak in you and the size of the venue is easily determined. I does lack that last bit of resonance and impact that would make it virtually real sounding.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on June 30, 2007, 01:03:25 AM
Wow,.. I just got done listening to the BC Tchaikovsky-Ballet Music from Operas. Talk about demo material. Conducted by Colin Davis, previously released by Phillips. This isn't exactly the sort of thing that I'd listen to for relaxation, but if your looking for huge dynamics and all those audiophile demo things; triangles, bass drums galore,.. the 1812 for almost an hour! You get the idea. So, if you want to scare the cat or impress that special someone ( think Peter Sellers/Paula Prentiss in " The World of Henry Orient") this could be just what you need.
BTW, I found this and 4 others for Buy it Now @ $9.99 ea.. So there are some bargains out there still.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: AZ_Gary on July 07, 2007, 08:23:24 PM
Steve,

I just snagged my first. The seller is local, so I should have it Tuesday or Wednesday. I got this one from your "must have" list: Virgil Thomson- Suite from " The River"/The Plow that Broke the Plains.

Thanks again for the catalog and the tips.

Gary

Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: Mr Uggs on July 23, 2007, 08:43:15 AM
Greetings all,
After reading the first thread from ironbut about purchasing bags for tapes, I thought that I would throw my 2 cents in. I have been making my own bags. As I have access to a shrinkwrap machine, I can take vinyl album covers, cut them down, and form fit them to single, or double, tape boxes. I then create indents on the flap portion, cut down to a thin stripe, double sided tape, and, voila!, a protective, sealing cover has been made. It takes time to do, however, it is a use that I have found for used clear vinyl sleeves, rather than tossing them out into the environment.
Although, when I run out, checking out that link for pre-made tape covers will be a good thing.
Yeow.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on July 23, 2007, 06:06:55 PM
Welcome to the forum Kevin. Always glad to see another Bay area tape lover. That's a good idea about reusing the record bags. Especially for 2 tape boxes. I have some 2 tape covers that I got with some auction goodies and man, are they tight! As far as the Ebay guy with the covers, his presence has been a little on and off lately but when you catch him, those bags a high quality.
BTW, if you need a copy of the BC catalog, I have a 1981 copy I've been sending to folks, so PM me if you want a copy.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: scully280 on August 29, 2007, 08:12:38 AM
I was playing some BC tapes this weekend and there's something I've been doing since I started with tapes years ago that I just take for granted.  I've always had a large hub 7 inch plastic reel for a take-up reel.  I've found this very helpful on with the typical  pre-recorded tape that's also on a large hub 7 inch reel because you don't get the large mis-match in back tension.  That shouldn't make a difference with a completely aligned and set up tape deck, but....  It always helps, I think.  They sometimes go out of stock but US Recording generally has these.  Oh, I also have lately been moving tapes on small hub 7 inch reels to 10 inch reels for critical playback for the same reason.  But then maybe I'm just weird.

Rich
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: docb on August 29, 2007, 11:23:48 AM
Quote
I've always had a large hub 7 inch plastic reel for a take-up reel.  I've found this very helpful on with the typical  pre-recorded tape that's also on a large hub 7 inch reel because you don't get the large mis-match in back tension.

I think that's a great idea.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: High and Outside on August 30, 2007, 02:01:36 AM
Quote
I've always had a large hub 7 inch plastic reel for a take-up reel.  I've found this very helpful on with the typical  pre-recorded tape that's also on a large hub 7 inch reel because you don't get the large mis-match in back tension.

I think that's a great idea.

Me too.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on December 06, 2007, 11:45:05 PM
I haven't posted in this thread for a while because, frankly, I haven't been buying many BC's lately. Well, I got a couple a few weeks ago and between the TP releases and some other tapes that have been keeping my attention, I hadn't listened to them till now. They are both excellent for very different reasons. The first is William Boyce, Symphonies 1-7. These 18th century symphonies are 6-10 minutes in length and played by Nevelle Marriner and St. Martin In-The-Fields with a harpsichord continuo. Marriner and the small ensemble do their usual wonderful job of keeping the balance between energy and respect for the composers original intentions sound just plain fun. The tape probably sounds better than it would have if it had been a more extensive gathering. There's nothing like being able to hear around period instuments in a nice reverberant hall. This is a wonderful sounding tape and if you enjoy the contrast between a group of musicians enjoying themselves with the discipline of harmonic theory, this may be just what the doctor ordered.
The second BC is Saint-Saens "Carnaval des Animaux" and Ravel " Ma Mere l'Oye". This is dup'ed from a "digital" master! Yikes! Memories of those awful records cut from PCM masters that were all boom and no heart. Well, the sound is all that. And while the playback
 may not have a whole lot of body, the heart is supplied by the Pittsburgh Symphony and Andre' Previn. I can't remember the name of that Sunday afternoon show that Previn hosted back in the '70s but the way he could coax the best out of a large ensemble really pays off in this performance. There's an ease to his reading of complex polyrhythms that really puts the piece in order. I think this adds to the depth of the listeners understanding and ultimately the enjoyment of other similar works. This might not be the best sounding BC in my collection, but it's right up there with the most memorable.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ceved on February 11, 2008, 06:46:17 PM
Has anyone played a BC quad tape on a non quad deck?
Results?
I had no idea that BC produced tapes for use in flight by American Airlines.
That probably made as much or more money for them than sales to regular folks.
Has anyone ever tried to contact the new iteration of the company to see if the original founders are still around?
They might find the TP of interest.
I am sure they would find some of the recent BC Ebay prices amusing as well!
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on February 11, 2008, 07:07:46 PM
Actually, about 12 of my BC's are from Barclay's estate. There was a guy in Hollywood that had his complete collection and was selling them for pretty high ($25) prices at the time. That was in my early Ebay days and nobody, and I mean nobody would ever bid against me. Then I started looking around and realized that $12-15 was the going rate for them. I can't remember who it was, but one of the members visited the Poughkeepsie factory when they were still in business. (as I recall, he lives in Rochester NY, nice town) The Barclay-Crocker that sell the men's toiletry is one and the same and are based in NYNY.
American Airlines huh? I didn't know that. I guess they don't teach the proper use of hold down tape or attaching leader in flight attendant school!
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: astrotoy on March 24, 2008, 07:15:32 PM
I've started looking for B-C tapes to add to my collection. I currently have 119 tapes with 112 titles and 7 two reel sets. About a dozen are dbx II encoded. I bought just about all of them from B-C back in the early to mid 80's before they went out of business. I think I paid about $8 per tape, which was about what a record cost in those days. Here is the problem - for some reason B-C tapes on eBay have been selling at around $75. This is crazy. It makes me think about dubbing my B-C tapes and then putting the originals up on eBay. Since I just started looking, has this been going on for a long time?  One of the vinyl vendors I patronize typically has a fair number of precorded R2R, with a few B-C's from time to time. But they sell them for around $15 - a reasonable price.  Larry
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ironbut on March 24, 2008, 08:18:21 PM
Hey Larry, the prices on all the better classical tapes (BC included) have been on a real roller coaster the last year or so. I almost never pay more than $20 for a BC unless it's still sealed or a double tape. I guess it depends on how big of a hurry you're in. That's the only reason I can come up with why anyone would pay more than $30 for one you don't know the particulars about. $75 is more in line with what I might pay for a Mercury 2 track, a Blue Note or other famous jazz releases. BTW, the big jazz releases have been pretty big bucks for a while now. Big bucks to me at least (over $40). The starting prices of BC's have gone up a couple of dollars. It's the buyers who've gotten out of hand.
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ceved on March 25, 2008, 07:30:42 PM
Nobody said that Ebay was a place to get bargains; although it does happen every once and awhile.
To paraphrase the New Testament, when two or more are gathered on Ebay there is an auction.
I believe there are several good reasons to explain the price phenomenon;
1. Favorable comments concerning BC and other label titles on this forum among others.  Remember what HP's comment on the soundtrack to Casino Royale did to the resale cost of that record?
2. The apparent rise of interest in rtr in general, and hi fidelity rtr in particular fostered by this forum and others.
3. The general desire to justify the expense of these modded/refurbed machines by acquiring quality software.  Who wants to spend $6,000 +/- to play 10 TP tapes no matter how good they sound?
4. The favorable exchange rate against the dollar.
5. The median age of long time audio devotees but newer rtr enthusiasts does not lend itself to patience.
6. Older format  Music software availability seems to run in cycles and probably lags slightly behind the retirement/mortality curve as it makes its' way through the secondary market.  Availability does not seem to be linear in my experience.
I am sure there are other reasons including chance.
The good news/bad news about prices is that they are up; but the higher prices are also causing current owners to liquidate their collections while the high prices are in evidence.  This means that more titles are being made available than otherwise might be the case.
I expect almost everything about this niche will continue to become more expensive as the secret gets out.
Software is the logical leading edge.
Machines even the plentiful models such as the Otari 5050 series will soon follow suit.
The good old days are already leaving; wave good bye.
The ironic thing is that as much as we hate to see them leave, go they must if this format is to gain broader acceptance.
That is my take.


 
Title: Re: Barclay-Crocker collecting notes
Post by: ceved on March 31, 2008, 03:19:20 PM
For those in the forum tired of getting pounded on Ebay and having difficulty finding other sources for BC titles, I may have an individual that you wish to contact.
I have cleared this post with 'Doc'.
The individual has approximately 100 titles available.
He prefers to sell them in lots, rather than individual titles.
I have no financial interest at all in any dealings you may have.
I have not received and will not receive any form of consideration for this post.
If you are interested, please send an email to me and I will give you the link to the seller.
You can find my address in the member information section of the Forum.
After that I am out of the loop.
Whatever you decide to do after you have contacted the seller is between you and him.
Neither I, The Tape Project, The Tape Project Owners or The Tape Project Forum are responsible for the outcome of your transaction.
That disclaimer being duly noted, I would not post this if I thought there was a problem.