Tape Project Forum
Tape Machines => Reel to Reel Tape Machines => Topic started by: swamprat on December 22, 2009, 07:47:18 PM
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Hello I am new to this forum and am hoping you all can help. I have a problem that when I try to play a tape the tape loops down off the heads and will not play, If I drag my hand on the pay out reel the loop goes away and it plays fine. I am not new to the X-1000R and X-2000R decks and have refurbished many to date. I have replaced the rollers with new ones and made adjustments to the motor torque settings and pinch roller thrust clearance all with no effect. Can anyone tell me what is causing this and it's not the tape? Thanks.
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Sounds like the brake on the take up reel is dragging.
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A defective flywheel belt can cause those exact symptoms. Install a new one. It's available new from Teac (don't use an aftermarket belt). If you already have a new aftermarket belt installed, then it could also cause the symptoms.
You need to return the tape-tension back to where it was. Did you mark the pot settings before you turned them? If not, consult the service manual as to how to adjust the tape tension. A tension meter will be needed.
Also make sure the pinch roller arm bearings are good...the pinch rollers should freely move up and down (by hand). Clean and lube if not.
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Well it is not the brakes as they both disengage once it goes into play mode, I have installed a new TEAC belt I got from Japan and that is not the problem. I have a Tentilo meter and that setting is correct. I have 2, X-2000R units both having the same problem, one is intermittent and the other one does it all the time. I have replaced both reel motors and the capstan motor as well with no effect! I am wondering if this could be some problem with the motor control circuit's or some out of tolerance component or something? Anyone have any ideas or had a similar problem? Thanks.
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When this deck changes play direction, the capstan belt shifts over to a different position on the flywheel. There is a "step" on the flywheel where the belt rides on. This step slows down the tape-entrance capstan, causing a speed differential between capstans and thus tension across the heads. When you change the capstan motor direction, the belt shifts over and the opposite flywheel then slows down. Make sure your belt shifts every time you switch direction.
Why did you buy parts from Japan? Teac of America has never stopped selling the original belts or pinch rollers for these decks. Once again, make sure both of those items are the exact Teac part....it's critical for proper operation.
Make sure the tape-tension changes when you reverse direction. The take-up tension should be about 10 grams more than supply and this should switch when changing direction of play. Specifically: 50 grams take-up, 40 grams back-tension.
Also, when you installed a new capstan motor, did you reinstall the two washers under one of the motor-mount screws? It tilts the motor, causing the belt-shift I described above. Without the belt-shift, this deck will not operate properly.
I've probably encountered over a hundred X-series decks in my shop with this defect (it's very common) and all have been repaired by addressing the above.
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Thanks Tim. I checked the motor and you were right! The spacer washers were missing, and the belt was not changing position on the flywheel pulley when I changed direction of play. I added the motor spacers and now the belt is changing positions on the flywheel pulley when I change the direction of play. I got the unit so it plays in the forward direction fine but the tape is still slipping off the heads in the reverse direction. I will get out the Tentilo meter and set the tensions again but I don't think that's the problem. I am not sure if this is a TEAC belt or not, I may have gotten it off E Bay or someplace. Do you think the belt is that important if it is not a TEAC belt? The ones I am using look almost identical but are a bit thicker and wider than the original and change directions on the pulleys now. Can you give me the address of the USA supplier? Thanks. D.F.
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There is no need to go though a supplier....Teac will sell parts directly to you. 323-727-7632 [email protected] Have the part number at hand.
Yes, I would reset your tape tensions carefully. That may fix the remaining defect. Definitely buy a Teac belt for this unit. It may also fix the defect, however, even if it turns out the remaining tape-loop problem is caused by something else, you will get lower wow/flutter spec with the original belt. Capstan drive belts very much determine how much wow & flutter your deck will have. I have never seen an after-market belt have W/F specs even close to Teac capstan belts. They are manufactured in a specific way to minimize W/F.
Are the new pinch rollers Teac?
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Yes the new pinch rollers are TEAC, can I use the part numbers out of the service manual for ordering?
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Yes the new pinch rollers are TEAC, can I use the part numbers out of the service manual for ordering?
Yes. Teac sometimes has new part numbers, but the original number is a good starting point.
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Wow this is interesting! I added the second washer under the capstan motor screws like it shows in the service manual. I noticed that the diagram for the motor replacement only shows 2 washers (1 big 1 small) under one of the 3 mounting screws. Then I noticed that the exploded diagram of the entire unit shows washers under 2 of the 3 motor mounting screws, so I followed that example. So I put it all back together and tried playing a tape, it worked only in one direction. The tape would still loop off the heads in the other direction! I am not sure how the drive belt is supposed to go, over the capstan drive roller or under it, I have seen it done both ways but according to the service manual it looks like it should go up from the bottom part of the belt up over the roller that way. I have always done it that way and never had a problem till now. So I said "what the hell", I'll try it the other way and see. Well it worked! With the belt over the roller from the top part of the belt it now plays in both directions with no looping off the heads! I don't know if that's the proper way to mount the belt or not. I am not sure it is the right belt or not but it works. Now I am going to order some belts from TEAC America and replace them when they come in. Now I need to tear down my other X-2000R with the same problem and see if I can get it working too! Thanks to all you guys for helping me out. I love this Forum!
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Yes, you are threading the belt incorrectly. The belt should be straight on top (flywheel to flywheel) and on the bottom, should loop up around the motor pulley, and back down.
The fact that it works better threaded the other way just demonstrates that the after-market belt is not the proper size. When you put your new Teac belt in, thread it back to the correct way. Also, those two motor-tilt washers only go under one of the motor mount screws.
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Tim,
I am having about the same problem with an X-1000r. It has a TEAC belt on it, but it was new about 3 years ago. The machine sees very minimal use. Probably none for the last year. I noticed the problem about a month and a half ago. I just decided to dig into the problem tonight. I took the belt off and inverted it - inside is now outside. That did not seem to help. Could my "new" belt be stretched with non-use? The unit works in the reverse direction correctly, but not in forward direction. It develops the tape loop and tape falls from the head. I don't have a pressure meter. In your opinion, is this probably a belt problem. BTW, in watching the machine change directions, it moves the belt when the direction is changed. To my knowledge, this unit has never been worked on except for me replacing the belt. It did work after the belt and pinch rollers were replaced 3 years ago.
Thanks. Bobby
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I think I've covered above most of the causes of tape-loops between capstans. Make sure your pinch-arm bearings are free-moving, capstan shafts should be free of oxide build-up, pinch rollers in good condition, correctly installed Teac flywheel belt, proper tilt of the capstan motor and proper adjustment of the tape-tension servo. Has anyone toyed with the tape-tension adjustments? If so, that may be the problem, assuming everything else is fine. You can bounce your finger off the tape and get a feel of the tension (between the reel and the tension roller). Take-up tension should feel stronger than supply tension. This should switch when you hit reverse (left reel tension should feel stronger than right reel tension). If you do want to adjust the tension pots, carefully mark the pot position first. If all else fails, find a shop with a tension meter on hand.
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Thanks for your reply, Tim. I will order a brand new belt from TEAC America and try that first. If no luck, then I will try to adjust the tension arms. Capstans are clean and in great shape. Heads are all clean. I have cleaned everything in the tape path that I can see that would cause any friction or drag. Pinch roller arm seems to work freely. Tape tension adjustments have not been messed with. Just to verify the correctness of the flywheel belt. I install the belt around the two flywheels and then move the motor up under the center of the bottom loop of the belt, so the belt flows over the top of the pulley on the motor. Again, thanks for your help. Bobby
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Yes, the belt threading you described is correct.
On occasion, I've encounter weak reel motors causing similar defects. This will effect tape-tension and therefore cause tape-loops (between capstans) and tape skew. Fix is easy. Cleaning debris out the commutator gaps restores the motors to their full torque. Like I stated, though, not a common problem.
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I have learned from tech after tech telling us to use factory parts whenever possible. It really makes a difrence on the belts.
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First time poster and I really appreciate the professional help posted here. I was able to get my 2nd unit running well as a result but I have some VERY INTERESTING info about TEAC belts.
I ordered two pinchrollers and a belt from TEAC USA and installed them...unit STILL displayed the problem of tape play between the pinch rollers. When I compared the NEW belt to the old one, I discovered that the old one was 17.5 inches in diameter and the new was only 17 inches. The new belt would not allow the belt to switch positions on the capstan pulley wheels in the back. After cleaning up the old one and re-installing, the unit operated perfectly.
These belts are DIRECT from TEAC...
???
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17 inches is the correct size for the new Teac capstan belt. They have always been this size. Your old belt has stretched, which is normal behavior. I've never encountered any problems when using the original 17 inch belt, so there must be another defect causing the tape loop between capstans.
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Well...perhaps I'm stretching the belt on my measuring card...because...
On my second deck...having the same problem, the belt sent to me by TEAC once again would not allow the unit to fast forward or rewind accurately nor would it switch position on the capstan pulleys.
I ended up digging out a new spare belt from overstock that was .5 inch bigger (by my measurements) and the deck now works perfectly.
Again...neither deck will work with TEAC supplied belts.
One deck having a particular problem I understand...not both. I dont doubt your expertise but I'm just saying that the decks here in my shop will not operate correctly with TEAC supplied belts but work perfectly with belts that are .5 inch bigger.
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Hi Tim,
Finally received my new TEAC belts. They were out of stock for some time. My tape loop problem still is present with new capstan belt installed. Will pursue a couple other suggestions to try to resolve.
Thanks. Bobby