Tape Project Forum
Tape Machines => Reel to Reel Tape Machines => Topic started by: mikel on January 24, 2008, 12:23:03 AM
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Hello All,
i had purchased a Studer A-820 back in November but could not find a proper crate to safely ship it or someone to 'get it right'. Paul Stubblebine suggested i contact Fred Thal (who runs the Studer list) and so far i have been very satisfied that Fred is the right guy for Studer help. for the last three weeks i've been reading posts on the Studer list......very entertaining and educational.
Fred constructed a purpose built crate, shipped it to the seller in Austin, Texas, and the A-820 safely and securely arrived at Fred's shop in Ukiah, California yesterday. Tonight Fred e-mailed his initial inspection report to me and it is obvious Fred is 'da man' on Studer's. He has removed and inspected 28 of the circut boards so far.
Fred says my A-820 is remarkably clean and original (not hacked up and abused.....'dead stock' is how he put it) but also is a bit dirty inside (normal for a 21 year old machine that has mostly sat idle) and in need of updating as it has been hardly used. i do not yet know what the tariff will be for the work but i am confident i will soon have a top condition A-820.
Fred's list of essential fixes and optional fixes is not yet complete......so i'm not yet out of the woods....but i'm on my way. I do enjoy Fred's very thorough way of communicating the details of his inspection and do recommend Fred as a 'go-to' guy for Studer work.
stay tuned.
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Thanks Mike, it's too bad you couldn't have a web cam delivered to Fred's shop so we could all watch the progress.
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Fred completed his initial inspection and sent me an estimate for the scope of work he recommended. It included a few repairs, relapping the heads (sent out to JFR) , a thorough cleaning, and an update to MK II status. It was not cheap and kinda took my breath away......so i took a week to consult with SWMBO (the wife).....but ultimately decided to proceed. The parts have been ordered from Switzerland, the heads are getting done, the machine is being cleaned.
Thru this process with Fred i have been learning a great deal about the 'Studer' view of the world of reel to reel tape players. I wonder if anyone else has been following the recent threads on the Studer List.........i've learned more there over the last month (although much of it is way over my head) than i learned in 6 months of research regarding reel to reel on the web. Great stuff and very entertaining.
My decision to proceed with this expensive process had mostly to do with Fred's explaination of the significance of the 'time-based' accuracy of the A-820 compared to other reel to reel players. My turntable has this advantage over all other turntables so i am familiar with the sonic advantages of getting the speed correct. I am anxious to hear how it sounds.
Fred said that the Studer A80 was an easier machine to maintain and the mods for it had been more researched and developed; but although it sounded great it could never quite match the accuracy of the A-820. It will be interesting to hear how it compares to my ATR-102.
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Thanks for the update!
"I wonder if anyone else has been following the recent threads on the Studer List.."
I've been soaking it in for about a year now. If you are interested in r2r and Studers in particular it is the place to subscribe. They use the somewhat limited majordomo which is frustrating for many (me too).
I have two Studer A80's and have just started the dialog with Fred for a capstan rebuild, and today got the info that the cost will be 1,150.00 CHF = 1,051.86 USD !!! I'm so upset I almost could puke! (However, it is a ball bearing(like the A820) instead of sintered bearing though) Meanwhile Athan on their web site lists a rebuild at $300. I've got a LOT of soul searching to do.
Anyway, all I can say is that to have an A-820 makes you one lucky "some-na-a-beach" (if you will pardon my french). There is no finer machine in my estimation.
Yours truly in Studer lust,
The Studer Fool.
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I luv the Studer list for its' information and I've learned enough to become a Studer fool -- :) The downside of the list is that its' hard to obtain various subject threads, since it doesn't have a GUI to navigate it.
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So Studer list guys, what's the difference between the A80 RC and the VU?
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Ironbut asks: "what's the difference between the A80 RC and the VU?"
The fastest answer is to state that which is the same about the RC and the VU. And that is that they both have the same transport, including the transport electricals as well as mechanicals. Which is saying alot as the A80 transport is admired and respected by everyone who knows them.
The A80-VU came first and was designed to be the top-of-the line studio machine in its day. The VU was available as both as 2", 1" and 1/2" multi-track recorder as well as 1/2" and 1/4" 2-track mixdown recorders. As such modularity was maximized and the audio electronics could be swapped amongst them all. Also these audio electronics where mostly mounted above the transport deck (which makes these decks wonderful to sit at and edit tape on). This of necessity results in a longer signal cable length. Thus it is my surmise (and I note Richard Hess's too) that this is the reason for the low impedance heads utilized on all -VU A80's.
The A80/RC however, uses high impedance heads, and the audio electronics are located under the deck, doable because the RC was never a multi-track, only essentially a two track (or thereabouts). The R, and the RC which soon followed and replaced it, were in response to demands from the Radio broadcasting industry who wanted the A80 transport but at a cheaper price, and thus to fill that demand the RC came with "cheaper" electronics. Also as mono capability is important in broadcasting there is an interesting channel separation arrangement and adjustment to the RC audio electronics. What is also interesting is that while the -VU employed a number of IC op-amps, the RC audio-path was built with all discrete devices. Even where a quick look at the schematics appears to show potentially an IC op-amp in the RC, it turns out upon closer inspection actually to be a discrete device op-amp!
Of note to Tape Project subscribers is that for the A80-VU it is only a simple twist of the alignment screwdriver to flick the -VU EQ from NAB to CCIR/IEC. The A80/RC on the other hand requires pulling out the playback and record cards and swapping out small piggybacked EQ boards thereon. I have not yet gotten these EQ boards for IEC EQ myself and thus I have not yet played The Tape Project tapes on my A80/RC. Something I am very curious to try for myself.
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Cool, thanks Chris. Richard Hess had relayed his preference to the RC, sound wise, and now I know why.
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i have a question.
Fred Thal has been sorting out my A-820 (the subject of this thread).....and while i was waiting i noticed that he had an A80/RC--ML-5 for sale on ebay for big bucks....$17k.....that was a month ago. The ML-5 version of the A-80 is modified with John Curl designed original Mark Levinson electronics and (according to Fred) is a particularly excellent sounding playback deck. This particular unit (an original RC version based) is original and in particularly excellent condition.
We discussed a trade for my A-820 and i have been mulling over the decision for the last few weeks. Fred thinks that first of all, the A80 is likely a more 'friendly' machine for me to own.....as far as likely repairs and fickleness. He also thinks the ML-5 output electronics are going to be superior to anything i might get 'out there'.
Since Fred is the authority on A-820's and A-80's i should probably take his advice. But before i do i thought i would ask here if anyone here can offer any advice? it is very frustrating that there is no information at all to help with this decision.
thanks in advance.
Mikel
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It may sound silly, but perhaps you might try reaching Mark Levinson (The Man), or John Curl through contact with Parasound might help you. After all, they would certainly know the answers:)
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A further word, if I may. A guy by the name of Dean Roumanis used the Mark Levinson/Studer ML-5 machine to make a series of recordings in the early 1980's, mainly releasing these masters on 15ips, NAB, Open Reel tape copies to the public. I am very fortunate to own one such tape, that being Dean's "Roumanis Recordings Demonstration Tape #1". I brought this very tape with me to NYC last year to play on the Tape Project machine in the Magico room. I selected the last track, the Rheinberger Organ Concerto #3. I was positively astonished by what I heard, and my tape received the only STANDING OVATION of the day at the conclusion of the selection from all those present! Sadly, Dean is no longer with us, he passed away in July of 2005. His last job was as President of Krell Industries. I wrote an email to him in April of 2005 about his tape recording adventures. He wrote back to me, and said it was nice to hear from someone who still enjoyed his earlier work. I count that email as a prized possession. If I were you, Sir, I'd get the ML-5. Craig
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Craig,
thank you for taking the time to respond. your story about Dean Roumanis, the ML-5 and your tape is very helpful.
and i thank you for your recommendation that i proceed with the ML-5.....i'm leaning that way.
i will consider contacting Mr. Curl about his perspective.
i wonder if anyone has an idea how DeParavincini output electronics would compare to the ML-5? or the ML-5 to the Aria?
Mikel
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Talk about tough decisions! The studio at 1430 Mission is chock full of TdP electronics so I'd email Paul about the sound. John Curl hangs out quite a bit on the propellerhead forum on AA. I think that if you ping him there, you should get a response pretty fast. If you want to get hold of Mark Levinson, you can reach him through the Burwin Bobcat website.
BTW, when you corner Curl, ask him about the mods on the Technics decks he did too. Or better yet, tell him to post his thoughts right here. There was a thread a while back regarding the ML-5 under the title of audiophile tape machines (or something like that). Just do a search for ML-5 and you should find it. There were a couple of guys that had used one and although I don't think they spend much time here anymore, their contact info is probably still in the members listings.
Here's that thread;
http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php/topic,56.0.html (http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php/topic,56.0.html)
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Mike,
If I had unlimited where-with-all I would probably buy the ML. I dreamed about it. But I would still want/lust for an A820! Fred himself states on the Studerlist that the A820 has no peer in getting the tape moving past the heads in proper "time base" relationship. Either machine, the ML-5 or the A820, after coming from Fred, is going to be easy for an audiophile to live with for a very long time.
So one important consideration for you to answer is "Will I be making recordings?" By which I mean of live musicians, (as transferring CD's and LP's etc. is really not a meaningful use of such a machine IMHO). If you answer yes, you will soon be seeking at least two good microphones and Mic preamps or even a mixer at minimum.
If your interest lies elsewhere, say for playback of prerecorded tapes such as the Tape Project, you might stick with the A820 as your transport for now and enjoy quite acceptable sound and then get upgraded outboard playback electronics from Doc (or from Tim) as funds allow and thereby achieve the pinnacle (my opinion) in playback in the here and now.
While I have not heard them, I would expect the ML electronics to sound better "right-out-of-the-box" than the stock 820. But please remember the audio arts have advanced considerably since Levinson did the ML-5 and while I have not heard any of them, I honestly would expect Doc or Tim's current designs to ultimately trounce the ML. Tim's TdP stuff will also record of course, but I assume will set you back even more money (though no doubt worth it).
So the questions to wrestle with are:
a.) Will I be recording?
b.) Can I wait to achieve the best, and have the time, desire, and energy to pursue that, or do I want, really, really great right away, so I can just get down to listening to some really great music playback?
c.) and as always, what funds do I have to apply?
So-> I want it great right away -> ML-5
So-> I want to start great recording right away -> ML-5
So-> I want to achieve the very best playback -> A820 & start talking to Doc right away
So-> I want to eventually achieve the best record & playback -> A820 & TdP
At this level there are no wrong answers. Just personal decisions.
Yours Truly in Studer Lust,
Chris Wait
P.S. The above are my personal thoughts, please feel VERY free to ignore them, indeed I hope you will, lest I further conflict you.
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Steve,
thanks for the thoughts and especially for the link.
Chris,
i do not ever anticipate doing recording. i suppose there is a remote possibility of making copies of other tapes at some point; but even that is very unlikely. i'm a listener.
your point regarding how other repro electronics are likely better then the Levinson and that the A-820 is maybe a little better transport than the A-80 is exactly what has held me back from making the trade. so far my plan was to get the A-820, compare it 'stock' to my ATR-102 and then install custom electronics to whichever i prefer. i'm balancing that perspective with the fact that the ML-5 is an already well sorted out unit that would be installed and tweaked by Fred.
anyway; i really appreciate the feedback.....any other thoughts are very welcome.
Mikel
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update;
Fred has suggested 2 changes/updates to my A-820;
one is a Single-Head Reproducer.....Fred explains.
"The stock machine (like yours) had, in order, an erase head, a record head, and a reproduce head.
Any tape put on the machine is then dragged across the faces of all three of these heads.
We think this is really dumb, really bad, especially if all we actually need to do is PLAY a tape.
So we remove the erase and the record heads, move the repro head to a new position, add scrape flutter reduction rollers, re-adjust the running tape tensions and then discover that it all sounds so much better because we have just eliminated the scrape flutter excitation caused by the unneeded erase and record heads. (And we also reduce the wear on our valuable tapes!)
So, that's the concept behind the ATAE SHR (single-head-reproducer), in a nutshell."
in addition to this recommendation, Fred also recommeded something called an 'external calibrated azimuth control'.....which is like VTA for a tonearm. it will allow quick and easy adjustment to the head azimuth.
i'm planning on having Fred modify the head stack to SHR, and add the azimuth control. then he will load the beast into his truck and deliver it to me here in the Seattle area. i will get to watch as he sets it up.
i can't wait.
mikel
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OK, it has arrived.
i drove down to Ukiah, California to pick up the A-820 from Fred Thal. i just returned this morning at 6am. i left the Seattle area at 2pm Monday, arrived at Fred's shop at 7:30am Tuesday morning.....Fred spent from then until 3:30pm 'just scratching the surface' on the A-820. what an amazing machine. really a work of art.
i am basically a clueless non-technical person who can set-up a turntable and do a reasonable room and system set-up; but up till now i have struggled understand RTR nuances. Fred was very patient with me and did a primer on the A-820. he went over the basics of use and changing the programing.....showed me how to trouble shoot things.....and raised my RTR confidence level a ton.
i had never seen my A-820 before and it is literally a work of audio art. i guess i was very lucky to have found one that was little used but still cared for. it had not been used since the late 90's. it is flawless cosmetically; the wood grain has no chips, even the leather bumper is perfect. Fred said that while working on it he noticed it had been particularly well assembled. my unit, serial number 1129, was built after the first 100 or so when they were working out the bugs, but still when Dr. Studer still owned the company and the best techs were doing the assembly.
how does it sound?
i've listened to 3 Tape Project tapes on it so far.....and let's say i don't expect my Rockport on Lps to be able to compete.....and possibly it won't be close. WOW and double WOW!! this is the level of performance which caused me to pursue RTR and my hat is off to 'The Tape Project' for these great sounding tapes.
the level of nuance and information is staggering. it combines delicacy and dynamic impact perfectly like real life. on musical peaks the stability of the musical flow is astonishng.
i'm running a set of XLR's directly into my XLR input on my darTZeel preamp.....and it's perfect.
i'm no RTR expert; but i've spent some time around them and own the fully reconditioned Ampex which is certainly considered a pretty damn nice machine. there is nothing i've ever seen like an A-820 in the way it works.....
i am very happy.
i'll post more later....time to listen now.
(http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/A-820_very_close.jpg)
(http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/A-820_close.jpg)
(http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/mikel/RTR_family.jpg)
the Tim Paravincini EAR modified RS-1700 on the left, the A-820 in the middle and the ATR-102 on the right.
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Wow Mike! My drool bucket runeth over.
I'd love to hear a little about Fred's shop and some of the things he told you about maintaining your 820.
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Wow Mike! My drool bucket runeth over.
I'd love to hear a little about Fred's shop and some of the things he told you about maintaining your 820.
Steve,
i will do my best to list some random thoughts.....i'm still a bit rummy from 1600 miles of driving and 8 hours of training in 38 hours....not to mention the euphoria of the musical performances i am hearing.
as i'm not even a little bit of a technical person my viewpoint on Fred's shop would have limited value....but i'll do my best. the shop is a large space and there are a number of Studer products in various states of repair. Fred seems to have all the neat tools (electronic and other) to do whatever and measure whatever on a Studer. one impression i got was after seeing all the specialized Studer tools he has is that anyone DIYing an A-820 will struggle to get it to work optimally. it would be like diagnosing a modern automoble without the proper interface to the CPU. you would not know where to go next.
i was very impressed that he has documented all the things he did on my A-820.....he showed me every part he replaced (dozens and dozens) and had notes on every step he took. even bits of wire and such he had taped to log sheets.
it is not a retail space or display space and has no pretenses as such. it is a work area.
Fred was very kind to me and spent lots of his time making sure i was capable of enjoying my A-820. he started me out by explaining the basic landscape of the A-820 and some of the design features which make the A-820 such a dream to use.
-the A-820 stand does not look like anything special; but on closer inspection the mounting mechanism is over-built and has very solid 'indents' that work with swiss precision and allow you to rotate the A-820 to a number of angles....and then holds it there a solid as a rock. you can stand it almost on it's head and access the rear fuses comfortably while sitting down without kneeling and bending over. rotate it all the way over the other way and the card panel which is below the front is easy to see and read. then there is level, +7.5 degrees, +15 degrees, -7.5 degrees, -15 degrees (if you want to inspect the heads or do fine cleaning around them this is great....again, no bending over).
this sounds like a small thing but it sure made my A-820 education much easier.
-he explained the fuses and power supply failure circuts. i actaully measured each failure circut so if i ever had a problem and he got on the phone with me i would already be familiar with it.
-we spent a couple of hours on the programing tree and methodology of changing the programing. it actually is very simple and logical but i would have never been able to figure it out myself in a million years. i did set-up on 'A' and 'B' set-ups with alignment tapes. switching between equalization and set-up presets is simple.
-he showed me all the very neat tricks (well...maybe not all of them) that the transport does.....and how to adjust it with the programing. it has the shuttle and cueing wheels and they work with great precision.....it is so easy to find the beginning of the music. there is a sensor which slows the tape down as the tape is rewound and makes it simple to then use the shuttle to find the beginning.
-the pack is so smooth and flat....better even than when you first recieve new 'Tape Project' tapes....even at rewind speeds it is almost perfect. there is a library rewind and it is easy to program the speed of the rewind.
-there is a 'secret' switch which keeps others from changing the programing....when engaged any programing reverts to prior settings when restarted.
-we spent a good amount of time on the card slots and how to reboot, the correct way to pull a card out and the wrong way.
-my A-820 came with a new looking complete service manual....400 to 500 pages in a large binder. we used it for a reference so i would be familiar with it. one of Fred's pet peaves on 'The Studer List' is when posters don't even check the manual prior to asking questions.
-he explained what he replaced and what was not 100% and why it was OK. a complete rebuild on an A-820 could be over $100k and even a semi-complete reconditioning would be around $35k. basically the parts costs are astronomical.
-we spent some time on cleaning and what is important. he also said that i would never need to demag......Studer had gone to great lengths to construct the A-820 with non-magnetic materials and demaging would likely only cause harm. he also thought the ATR-102 likely did not need much demag either. i have no opinion on this other than i don't mess much with my cartridges (i own a cartridge demager as well as an Annis Hand-i-mag).
i'm just touching the surface here.....but you get the idea.