Tape Project Forum
Tape Machines => Reel to Reel Tape Machines => Topic started by: Spirit84 on March 10, 2008, 08:45:50 PM
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What would be the price range for a "mint" unit of the 1506?
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Boy, that's a tough one. BTW, welcome to the forum. Just like any other item like this, it depends on how savvy the seller is. The prices on the entire Technics RS line has gone up a couple of hundred in the last year or so. A fair price would be around $700 I think. That's for a mint looking machine that is in perfect working order (as far as the seller knows that is). I would say that none of the 15xx or 1700 machines (or any other reel to reel for that matter)are going to be in perfect working order so figure on at least $200 for adjustments, cleaning and some worn or aged parts to be replaced. As you can see, you're in the $1k neighborhood. For a little more you could get a refurbished machine. Take my word for it, they're worth every penny. They sold new starting at $1500 in the late 70's till the mid 80's and were really a bargain then. I doubt if they made this machine today, it would cost under $5k. I think the new Otari's are over $5k but there are so many of them that finding a bargain is much easier. There was a glut of Technics on eBay that I kept an eye on a few months ago. I mean, there were over 30 sold in a little over a month! I copied the pictures and compared them every week (before the auctions ended) so I could warn the members here if any were fake ads but I never found a duplicate. It drove the prices down about $100-150 overall and they still seem a little lower than before. Be careful though, some of these machines look good in the pictures but are not as nice as they seem. Unless the ad says that it is refurbished, it will need work.
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Ironbut: Thanks for the welcome and the exhaustive response!
Because I am new to the R2R hobby you can imagine all the questions that are swirling in my audio mind!
Let me limit my queries to only the following:
1: Where does one purchase refurbished machines? I have no idea where to start looking.
2: I notice that you have a wonderful VPI TT - how does the sound of the Tape Project tapes compare?
Look forward to reading your response.
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Welcome to this excellent forum sir. One of the things you might consider is placing an ad in your local newspaper. Actually, it would be best to put the ad in the newspaper with the greatest exposure. That's exactly what I did. A guy called me who had a Technic RS-1506 very cheap and hundreds less than I could have found on Ebay. The other great thing was being able to actually go where the recorder was to see it for myself. The recorder was in excellent condition, but does need the brakes adjusted. I will get that taken care of soon. Again, welcome and do get involved.
Bob W.
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Hi---, there's a guy up in Wa. state that frequently sell tricked out Technics machines ( the red one that Doc has and demoed at CES is one of them). Here's a link to his website;
http://www.j-corder.com/ (http://www.j-corder.com/) I'd shoot him an email and see what his basic prices would be and the options (like should you supply the machine?) to cut cost.
The Tape Project tapes stomps on my (rather neglected as of late) VPI like a bug. No comparison really. I still like vinyl for small combo jazz and some acoustic folk/bluegrass music, but more for the colorations that my set up has rather than the frequency response that seems to go on forever, the realistic dynamics and the absolute clarity of the first 4 TP releases. One of the reasons I think it's such a pleasure to hear these tapes is that they leave little doubt that there could be a better way to hear whatever the music is. You just know that your hearing it all.
BTW, you should post your name in your signature so we know what to call you. The how and where is in the forum rules forum.
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I can see this is going to be an interesting new adventure!!
Besides the Technics 1506 what are machines can I look for that can probably be found at a decent price. What about some of the older tube models dating to the 60/70's. Any direction that you guys can provide would not only be appreicated but will also save me a lot of time. Specifically, if there are certain kinds/models of machines that I should stay away from, that would be of great help.
Am I correct in the understandin that not all R2Rs are compatible with the Tape Project?
Look forward to learning from you; the experts.
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to play either the TP or Quinton tapes you need a 2-track, 15ips IEC/CCIR EQ capable machine... of the consumer decks, the Technics 1500 series was the most capable because it has most the prerequisites; the 1520 also ads a switchable IEC/CCIR EQ. I don't know of any consumer deck (except the 1520) that could right out of the box play any TP or Quinton tapes... (one benefit to the Quinton tapes is that fact that you can specify the EQ curve at time of order...)
cheers,
Danny
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I don't know of any consumer deck (except the 1520) that could right out of the box play any TP or Quinton tapes
The Otari MX5050BII (set for high speed) and MX5050BIII can. And some Revox machines can, but not necessarily those found in the US.
And of course the pro machines can - Studer and the king of all of 'em, the Ampex ATR 100.
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docb:
I did a little shopping today and have my eye on a great looking Revox A77 here in Toronto.
The person that is selling it says that it should be no problem playing any kind of prerecorded tape.
What do I have to check to make doubly sure that it will work with TP tapes.
Look forward to hearing from you or anyone who can help me.
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The seller's comment just sounds like sales talk. I don't think he's well enough informed to make such a blanket statement. Is the machine half track or quarter track? High speed (15 and 7-1/2) or low speed (7-1/2 and 3-3/4)? If it is to play most of the pre-recorded tapes from the '50's and '60's it must be quarter track.
To play Tape Project tapes correctly, it must be half track, high speed. And have the right EQ curve:
Most Revox A77's sold in North America came with the NAB curve. You want the IEC curve (which was known as the CCIR curve back when the A77 was current) for the high speed, though you can have the NAB curve on the 7-1/2 speed. You can modify the electronics to the IEC curve...it's really quite simple, just substituting a couple of resistors. Then you will have that upper mid-fi sound of which that machine is capable. You could also mate it with Doc's repro amp, now or any time later, and have much better sound.
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The Revox A77 that I was looking at has the following:
Hi speed (15 and 7.5)
1/2 track
I can have the machine modified to IEC curve.
Now - would this allow me to play any other prerecorded tape other than the Tape Project?
If it disqualifies the older tapes form the 50's and 60's is there another machine that I should look for that would allow me to play the TP tapes as well as any other tapes?
I am sorry for the newbie questions but tape has never been something I knew about.
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Sam,
Welcome to this fantastic forum. If I were you, I'd look hard for an
Otari 5050-2B tape recorder. This is a great machine and can handle, high speed, 1/2 track and 1/4 track tapes from the early years. In other words it can handle pre-recorded tape you can find on Ebay and other places. An Otari tape recorder in good shape can't be beat and they tend to be less expensive than the Technics and Revox tape recorders.
Bob W.
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Hi Sam, personally, I'd go for either a Technics or an Otari 5050. The main reason is the switchable 1/2 > 1/4 track head configuration. There's also the modifications that either have or soon will be available that really take these machines several levels above stock. There may be other machines in the future that will prove to be as good in this respect or even better. But for now, as far as pro-sumer decks, it's pretty hard to make an argument against them. Doc, Paul, and Michael have worked hard and long to develop these mods and it would seem wise to take advantage of the research and sweat it takes to prove the long term worth of them.
To me, the collecting of old 1/4 track tapes is tons of fun. Maybe it fulfills the hunter/gatherer thing in me. And while none of them will ever reach the sonic splendor of the Tape Project tapes, they do have some qualities that is seldom heard form vinyl.
BTW, I used to live in upper state New York and we used to go to Sam the Man's Record Store in Toronto. Is it still there? We'd drive 2 hours there and back just to go there. It was the King of all the record stores I've ever seen.
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Hi Sam, personally, I'd go for either a Technics or an Otari 5050. The main reason is the switchable 1/2 > 1/4 track head configuration. There's also the modifications that either have or soon will be available that really take these machines several levels above stock. There may be other machines in the future that will prove to be as good in this respect or even better. But for now, as far as pro-sumer decks, it's pretty hard to make an argument against them. Doc, Paul, and Michael have worked hard and long to develop these mods and it would seem wise to take advantage of the research and sweat it takes to prove the long term worth of them.
To me, the collecting of old 1/4 track tapes is tons of fun. Maybe it fulfills the hunter/gatherer thing in me. And while none of them will ever reach the sonic splendor of the Tape Project tapes, they do have some qualities that is seldom heard form vinyl.
BTW, I used to live in upper state New York and we used to go to Sam the Man's Record Store in Toronto. Is it still there? We'd drive 2 hours there and back just to go there. It was the King of all the record stores I've ever seen.
Ironbut:
It was actually called Sam the Record Man and unfortunately, as with all good things in audio, is gone to that large Record shop in the sky!
Let me make sure that I am clear on something. The Technics 1500 line would aloow me to play TP tapes as well as older tapes because of the swith between 1/2 to 1/4 - correct? However, perhaps I am wrong with my limited knowledge, but the 1500 series does not have IEC equalization. If the machine is modded to IEC what happens to listening to the older 50's and 60's tapes?
Sorry for the silly question, but this is a little confusing.
Also, Otari: There seems to be a myriad of different models of the 5050. Which speicific model numbers would be the ticket.
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Sorry to hear about Sam, Sam. The Technics is a four head deck. 2 Playback heads, 1/4 and 1/2 track and 1/2 record and erase heads. True, the stock playback electronics are NAB (like the old tapes) but you could build a Seduction or wait for the Seduction 2 and wire the heads directly to it. It's super simple to build in switchable IEC/NAB into it ( a couple of extra resistors and switches). The same goes for an Otari although wire routing has yet to be explored and posted. The 5050 came in three waves. Mk l, Mk ll, and the current Mk lll. Most of the ones you'll see for sale (or that I've seen) are the Mk ll. The Mk l&ll are 4 head machines stock. On the Mk lll, the 1/4 track head is an option. The prices on the Mk l&ll are usually pretty low because there are so many out there. If you do find a Mk lll for a reasonable price with the 4th head (this may be factory retrofitted) I think you'd be better off with one of those. It's would be newer, and the parts are definitely available. Be careful with these though, all the Otari's were favorite radio station work horses. Even in collage radio stations! I've looked at a couple (that the seller said was in great condition) that I still can't believe they worked at all.
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You cannot mod the 1500 to IEC. What many here have done is to use the 1500 as a transport taking the signal out of the heads and use an external tape amp instead of the 1500 electronics. There's many options of external amps and some of them can do both NAB and IEC. I use a Bottlehead Seduction:
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/seduction.htm (http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/seduction.htm)
If you can DIY it is a great bang for the buck and it sounds miles better than the 1500 electronics. But as I said, there's other options including the TP head amp which should be just fantastic.
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OK - I think I have got it straight -
I look for a Technics 1506. The 1506 will allow me to play TP tapes and other presrecorded tapes from Vintage years. I build/order a Seduction which will allow for swithching to the proper equalization required for either TP or Vintage tapes. Right?
Now - assuming that is correct - what is the differnece between the variuos 1500 models?
How difficult is it to find replacement parts for these machines?
BTW - I appreciate all the info I am receiving from you guys - from the bottom of my audio heart!
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The 1500 came with two-track erase, record and play heads, plus the extra head was quarter track. The 1506 came with quarter track erase, record and play heads, plus the extra head was half-track. Thus if you are interested in playback only, one's as good as the other. This is true whether you intended to use the built-in electronics (crappy sound) or external electronics.
Then there was the 1700, which was quarter track all the way, but with auto-reverse (the extra head was quarter track for reverse play.)
And the 1800, which has collector value out of all proportion to its inherent value, so it need not concern us here.
And the 1520, which was like the 1500 above, plus it has balanced inputs and outputs, a built-in oscillator, and switchable IEC/NAB EQ. So on the surface it looks like a good candidate for Tape Project tapes. However, may I remind you that the sound quality of the stock electronics is really really crappy.
1500, 1506 and 1520 all make good transports to use with external electronics.
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Re the stock electronics, I was reminded of just how lame they are compared to our outboard stuff yesterday. We had this little issue with the printing of the song order on TP-001 (cripes), and I went to double check the order yesterday before changing the liner notes, by playing my copy of TP-001 (serial number 002). The only machine I had handy was a stock RS1500. OK, that would be good enough for my purpose, so I threaded up the tape.
If you listen to an IEC tape on an NAB machine what you should hear is some additional treble, as the NAB playback curve adds in the treble boost a little bit lower than the IEC curve. And that is indeed what you hear if you switch the Tube Repro playback eq to NAB. So that was what I expected. But what I heard instead was dull and unresolved music. And this machine was in pristine stock condition with great looking heads. I had been listening to a fully modded RS1500 last week, and this experience reinforced just how much music you miss using the stock electronics.
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Doc,
of the difference, how much do you atribute to electronics and how much to the stock vs the modded transport?
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The dull sound is the electronics, all the way. What the tape path mods do is lower friction which makes the tape run more smoothly and consistently with less scrape flutter. It's has a smoothing effect, taking away a wee bit of edge that scrape flutter can cause. This gets you a bit more of that sense of flow that tape has compared to other sources, that makes it sound more real. Speaking of the tape path mods, a new mod that we are doing is removing the tape counter drive belt from the reversing idler. If you look at most 1500s you will see a little "tic" in the strobe pattern - even if the counter mechanism has been cleaned and lubed. If you remove the counter drive belt that tic usually goes away and the tape runs more smoothly.
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If you look at most 1500s you will see a little "tic" in the strobe pattern
I really did not get that one! I will look at the strobe tonight to see what you mean
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Yeah, I looked high and low for a replacement belt for mine (the one that it came with was stretched out and kind of hard) and finally found one. When I put it on, I knew right away that it was a bad idea. For one thing, I almost never look at the counter. For another, I could tell that the tension applied to the roller was counter productive (pun intended). I think that the tic that Doc mentioned is caused by a tiny bit of slack that is produced by uneven tension between the tape motion and the other belt that turns the counter. The tic is the release of that slack.
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Gentlemen:
Great forum.
Firstly, I like to thank Spirit84 for getting me back into this "reel" thing. As an avid Analogue lover for many years, and having been exposed to many a fine components, I realize just how much I have missed Analogue tape. I had a long listening session to a colleague's fully upgraded unit...Revox PR99.
As such, I have just acquired a Technics RS-1506 machine. Now before I go completely nuts regarding upgrades, I thought I would get reacquainted with this unit again.
Regarding upgrades, what would be next logical steps...The Bottlehead external unit sounds enticing...
Any guidance and advise would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
MKOM
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of course there's another option not mentioned yet - it all depends on outside influencing factors, so it could still take time to develop...
my Technics is courtesy of Tim d.P. - he replaced the entire playback & record electronics with his solid state design and as a result the deck has the following specs:
NAB + IEC/CCIR + Tim EQ
5-40k (+1/-4db) [5-36k +1/-3db] @ 15ips, 80db S/N relative to full output / Tim EQ...
5-20k (+1/-2db) @ 3-3/4ips
all this w/ stock heads no less...
1/4 track & 1/2 track play as usual...
best of all, you now truly hear what some of the better pre-recorded tapes are capable of sounding, never mind Quinton or TP...
and not to mention recording... that's a whole different ball game...
cheers,
Danny
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Are Tim's electronics tube or solid state?
David
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Are Tim's electronics tube or solid state?
David
Howdy - they are solid state...
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Glad to hear you got your Technics. Getting rid of that (or bypassing in my case) awful 70's mid-fi electronics is huge. It really makes the whole thing work. It's been over a year now since I bypassed mine and I find it remarkable that people are still enjoying their tape collections listening through that stuff. IEC,..NAB? How could you tell! (end of rant)
Well, congrats on the new addition to your family Danny. You should get your headblock painted black and have a gold TdP screened on it!
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Thank You Danny...
OK....Upgrades aside for a moment.....Spoke to a client who has worked in broadcasting for the past 30 some odd years. He mentioned that the machine of choice is the Studer A810. No upgrades required ???
I am open to any suggestions from the members.
Thank you in advance,
MKOM
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Spoke to a client who has worked in broadcasting for the past 30 some odd years. He mentioned that the machine of choice is the Studer A810. No upgrades required ???
The A810 was the machine of choice for radio stations, but not for recording studios. For a playback machine it could be a very good choice. The usual caveats about pro machines being rode hard and put away wet apply, so if you acquire one be sure to have it serviced by a competent tech. Paul has cooked up a little article about machine choices that we hope to get posted soon. In it he notes that any tape machine can be improved with better playback electronics, even the Studers and Ampexes. That said, you can enjoy Tape Project albums on a stock machine that meets the requirements too.