Tape Project Forum
Tape Machines => Reel to Reel Tape Machines => Topic started by: docb on November 04, 2008, 12:48:10 PM
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I will be taking delivery of a Nagra T next week. Paul has described working with one as a sensuous experience. Sounds like fun...
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I was wondering if you were gonna get that. The cool factor is off the charts on those.
Congrats!
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The price factor is off the charts I bet too for one of them.
Why is NOW I hear of the quality products, not 20 years ago when
everybody shifted to digital?.
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One just sold for $5600 on ebay today and the the last one I saw on there went for $5500. In this day of $15,000 CD players and $50,000 turntables that doesn't seem too exorbitant.
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Hey Ben, there's still quite a few machines lurking in radio/tv stations. Some of the ones left need work but they can be ridiculously cheap. The stations that were hot during the 70's and 80's had some pretty big budgets and some splurged on nice machines. When they went digital, the owners put them in storage and many of them are still there. The hard part is finding someone to ask or rather, getting through the reception desk to someone who might know. It's always worth a try because I still hear about guys getting machines for almost nothing.
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This is Canada -- We have a total of ONE T.V. network, and the same goes for RADIO.
I count several TV & Radio networks from the USA all illegally broadcasting into Canada. But you are right, if you are lucky you can get a good machine for a song.
The reason got into tape, once a R2R showed up for sale in Canada,
is not the $15,000 CD players, but all the DAC's and tweeks that seem to claim make your $35 CD player? sound like a million dollars. If digital & transistor amps are so good why are $500 line cords selling like hotcakes. Analog Tape for me, seems to be audio done right (barring sticky tapes), but only now have the speakers evolved back handle Hi-Fidelity. The Otari mx-5050 I have was some radio station spare.
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Oops,.. dumb yankee,.. I have to admit I got a laugh out of my stupidity.
There really is something about even the most pedestrian tape that I find most satisfying. I think most of us can find some gems for pretty decent prices rather than bumping heads with the big money guys. It takes a little time to learn the tell tale signs of a well care for tape and also the ones that probably never sounded great in the first place so it's a good idea to start out small I think.
It's pretty exciting when Doc gets his hands on something special like a Nagra T. I've only seen pictures of them and read a few posts but if it lends itself to modification, look out! I wonder how much they went for new? I know they had about a gazillion options available.
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Eh? Ironbut. :)
I am of the view point, if you have to *ask* the price, you can't afford it.
As for music, it is strange how different (good or bad) a R2R tape is from
say your memory of a radio, or a movie. The loss of low level details does change
vocals and the feel of a orchestra, and making me think, What was the great music
compared to the hum drum versions?
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Just for a point of reference I got my ATR 100 on ebay from a guy in Vancouver BC who had bought a bunch of surplus gear from CBC. I paid only $800, but then spent about another $3000 getting it into running shape, as it had a bad reel motor, bad power transistors, bad connectors, bad bearings, etc.,etc. Runs perfect now, and earns its keep as one of the duping slaves. Still looks like s**t though.
The Nagra on the other hand sounds like it is in very nice running shape. And it can't possibly look half as bad as my ATR.
but if it lends itself to modification
Shoot, what doesn't? Where's my cutting torch?
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Now is good time to remind you ... you need to polish it every day.
Runs and ducks ...
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Just arrived. Taking the proper amount of time in fondling each piece as I unwrap it. It's quite compact, which is a nice plus.
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Do you have the ultra rare - 10.5" reel adaptor?
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The Nagra T is a table top model (or roll around) with a front panel that looks like the console of a fighter jet.
Hey, I just kinda flashed on memories of when Paul McGowen was dragging that Nagra D around to all the audio shows with PCM recordings of some orchestra he'd made. I remember hearing them a couple of times and being underwhelmed. On the other hand, at the 1996 (or 1998) Stereophile show in San Francisco, John Garland (he had a super nice store here in San Jose for quite a while where I left my fair share of paychecks) had a room with all Audio Note gear and was spinning 7" dubs on an Ampex 600 or some other suitcase, tube machine that was pretty impressive.
I'm sure we'll all be learning lots about the ins and out of the Nagra T in the coming months.
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Got it set up and dug through the manuals to figure out how to set up the various speed/EQ combos. This is cool because I have some tapes that Paul has done for me in the past at different eqs that I have requested. It's really nice to listen to some tapes I haven't heard in two or three years.
The Nagra T is a really nice machine. One of the most impressive things is rewind - holy s**t! The manual specs it in M/sec rather than ips or cm/sec, and I can see why. I think it maxxes at about 390ips. But it's very smooth and gentle in start and stop. All the guide surfaces are ball bearings, which is gratifying in light of our modding Technics machines with ball bearings. Tape tension is similar as well.
The repro electronics are pretty good for SS. But natch I'm already looking at how to patch out to a Tube Repro without messing up the stock setup...
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The Nagra T-Audio and Ti recorders are two recorders that got me worked up about 10 years ago. I purchased my first T-Audio in Simsbury, CT about 9 years ago. Charlie(Stellavox) and I went to see the deck, which only had 56 hours<!> on it. The owner collected high end cameras and other tasty items, but only owned one<!> tape. He also had a 1/2 inch Studer A-80 2 track, which I also purchased. It had less than 20 hours on it! When Charlie first gazed upon the T-Audio, I was sure he would have given his left testicle for this ultra tasty deck. We got the deck home and tried it against his little Stellavox. We were both totally deflated after the toy stella ate up the Nagra. The transport and feel of ulta luxury is undeniable on the T. I quickly sold the T, but found another a few years later. This also did not last. IT should make a great semi-portable deck with other electronics and heads. I have a friend who took a Ti(instrumentation recorder) and stripped the plug in electronics out and installed tube electronics with fullly adjustable eq. It is a total gem. I'll try and post some pics later.
Rich Brown
Acoustic Arts
Portland, Oregon
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I spent some time looking for a simple reversible way to tap off the repro head, and was surprised to find that it looks quite do-able.
The head cables attach to a PC board on the backplane of the card cage, which is easily accessed. Right behind that point on the PC board, on the back panel, are two plugged holes for some optional Tuchel jacks that are for an optional high speed transfer connection with another T. Looks like I can run the head cables to pigtails coming out of those holes without making any irreversible alterations.
It also looks like I might be able to remove the time code generator from the meter bridge and shift the monitor panel in order to mount a Tube Repro up there - all reversible too - but I need to open that panel up and check the layout first.
I haven't found an inductance spec for the repro head to see if it will be a good match to the Tube Repro out of the box. But I figure I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying it...
addendum-
Looks to be a piece of cake. Ordered some 5 pin Tuchel connectors from Mouser. One connector will be head direct out. The other connector will be internal repro input. I can run custom cables to a Tube Repro (which will fit nicely in the bridge once I remove the time code monitor) and I can make another custom cable that will loop the direct head out to the internal repro input. Switching cables will be all that is necessary to go from internal repro to external repro, and I should be able to meter Tube Repro for alignment by y-ing the output of the Tube repro and running the output to the line input of the Nagra.
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Well we did a little comparative listening yesterday, between the stock Nagra T and Big Red, the red J-corder RS1500 that we have extensively modded and attached to a Tube Repro.
The Nagra is a nice sounding unit in terms of pace, but the old LF353N op amps definitely show themselves in the playback - flat, a bit grungy, and not so hot on the bottom end. The Technics/Tube Repro setup had far more ambience recovery, better bottom end, and generally more realistic feeling presentation. The one minor negative is that the leading edge of transients seemed a wee bit slower than on the Nagra. I've noticed this when comparing the Technics/Tube Repro setup to an ATR with tube playback electronics, and I am beginning to suspect that the pace and attack are determined to a some degree by the transport quality. That doesn't necessarily make any sense to me, but I am keeping my mind open while I investigate the idea further. Can't wait to get my Tuchel adapter setup running on the Nagra. I think the Nagra/Tube Repro combo might be pretty darn cool.
And just for the heck of it I am gathering info about op amp upgrades for the stock Nagra repro electronics. There are 8 LF353Ns to replace between the two channels so a $50 a pop dual-OPA627-on-Brown-Dog-adapter replacement is kind of out of the picture, but I may try some less expensive chips like OPA2227, OPA2132, etc.
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I also want to remind you Black Gate caps can still be found for interstage coupling.
Don't even the expensive opamps have the same totem pole output driver stage?
I am wondering that is the problem with modern chips in that they can't handle
the tiny changes signal polarity. Only tubes I know come as class A outputs.
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Well we did a little comparative listening yesterday, between the stock Nagra T and Big Red, the red J-corder RS1500 that we have extensively modded and attached to a Tube Repro.
The one minor negative is that the leading edge of transients seemed a wee bit slower than on the Nagra. I've noticed this when comparing the Technics/Tube Repro setup to an ATR with tube playback electronics, and I am beginning to suspect that the pace and attack are determined to a some degree by the transport quality. That doesn't necessarily make any sense to me, but I am keeping my mind open while I investigate the idea further.
I've thought a little about the motors and a few other possible issues with the Technics. One of the reasons for this is, the more we free up the tape motion the more that issues directly related to motor design and the Quartz locked system will be audible. It could be that the feedback frequency just isn't high enough for 15ips. I know that in one of the discussions on the Studer list there was mention of different servo modules being used depending upon the speed range for this reason. I'm wondering too if some of the studio machines might have some power conditioning built into them to minimize the work that the servo has to do. If the servo is constantly correcting the speed than the speed won't be very even. That's one of the reasons I was looking into the battery powered option that the Technics has. I've heard comparisons of turntables with and without outboard speed controllers and different belt materials. The improvements I heard were in transients but mostly in the bass (I think due to the compensation for the added friction that the larger impulses within the grooves create). Tighter bass translated into less overhang into the mids. They were very small improvements if anyone is wondering.
Another issue is that the capstan motor doesn't seem to be a very high torque design. The reason I say this is that I had to adjust the speed after disconnecting the counter belt. It's probably better for safe tape handling but it may become a limiting factor in ultimate sound quality.
The other thing I've noticed is that there is a lot of motor rumble transmitted to the headblock ( " a lot" is very relative here since I was using a stethoscope ). I've been meaning to pick up a giant hunk of blue tack and see if damping will have an audible effect.
Well, that's my 2 cents worth and some stuff I want to experiment with. If any of it reaps any reward, you guys will be the first to know.
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Hmm, sounds like maybe your capstan motor bearings are getting worn. That's kind of a drag (pun intended), because according to Jeff Jacobs you need a bigass press to replace them. I would agree that it appears that the the capstan motor is a low torque design, just based on the observation that it uses flywheel effect for stability. I do like the big diameter capstan. If power conditioning would help I might suggest a shunt regulated supply over batteries.
Hopefully my connectors will show up tomorrow or Monday and I can make some direct comparison between the Nagra and Technics with the same Repro.
We also just finished a full ball bearing on every tape guide mod to a 5050. We will be listening to this with the repro tomorrow. I had hoped it would be a mod that we could package as a kit. That was the plan until we went to pull the three fixed guides under the head block. Those suckers are glued together with a nasty white Loctite type material that is a total b**ch to get apart. We had to remove each guide assembly with channel locks and a rubber sleeve to protect the finish, then clamp the guide in a vise and use channel locks to take it apart, install a pair of ball bearings and shims, soak the threads in acetone to temporarily soften the thread lock long enough to chase the thread with a SS screw, then soak them again to soften the remaining goo long enough to reassemble the guide before reinstalling it. The thought of giving tech support for that kind of tedious and potentially damaging work is enough to turn me off from writing up a set of instructions. I'll give listening impressions tomorrow. The other mods made mods before doing those three guides made an audible improvement in terms of resolution so I hope to have positive comments about the fully modded 5050 vs. the stock ones we have here.
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Doc I would be very interested in reading your findings on the 5050, so please don't forget to post them.
Jay
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Hmm, sounds like maybe your capstan motor bearings are getting worn. That's kind of a drag (pun intended), because according to Jeff Jacobs you need a bigass press to replace them. I would agree that it appears that the the capstan motor is a low torque design, just based on the observation that it uses flywheel effect for stability. I do like the big diameter capstan. If power conditioning would help I might suggest a shunt regulated supply over batteries.
Yeah, rumble was probably a poor choice of words. There is just a tiny bit of noise (once again with a stethoscope on the headblock) when I turn the flywheel manually but it doesn't sound abnormal. The noise I hear is more of a motor hum type of thing that I'm sure is normal too. It's way below the threshold of unassisted hearing but considering that it is being transmitted to the heads I can't help but think that this would effect the sound in some way.
Please note that my machine is sounding amazing right now and this is in the realm of "reaching for it". But while one person might say that there's a limit to how closely a $1500 machine can sound like a $20,000 one, all I can say is that's it's just too damn much fun not to try.
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Got my Tuchel connectors yesterday and this morning I got an early start on the direct head out of the Nagra T. Worked out to be fairly clean and reversible with the simple addition of a T strip held down by an existing screw on the backplane close to where the repro head attaches to the PC board. Just moved the coax head cables up to the T strip and ran coax cables to the male Tuchel jack I installed in the unused high speed copy jack holes. Cobbled together a stereo cable with a female Tuchel at one end and Neutrik Pro-Fi RCAs at the other to fit my Tube Repro inputs, using our latest cable recipe.
Made for a very quiet connection. Right out of the gate the T showed great ability to reproduce the transients and deliver lots of resolution. I haven't measured yet but the impression is that the Nagra head has a pretty substantial output level. This is the best sounding tape setup I've had in my own listening room and I get the feeling it should be getting pretty close to an ATR (which I have not heard in my listening room). The Technics is not too far behind, in fact the Technics/Repro combo was much better sounding that the Nagra with stock op amp electronics. The Technics transport just sounds a wee bit softer on transients and a wee bit less resolving with the stock playback head (don't have an extended response head in stock at the moment). It also has a little bigger bass, which may indicate a need to trim some adjustments in the Repro to better natch the Nagra head.
Now that it is all together I will run some tones and see just where we are. Long term plan is to build a custom Tube Repro that has three eq settings, NAB, IEC and Nagramaster. This will require a custom front panel and some trickery in the eq switching, but it should be doable.
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Atta boy Doc! Sounds like you're having a ball with the "T". Did/does Nagra manufacture their own heads? I think that some pictures of your new baby are in order. I see that there's another Nagra T owner in our midst now too.
Keep up the good work pal!
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I dunno about the heads. I do know that thru the stock electronics I was seeing almost 3dB down at 30Hz, so something needed trimming. The heads show some wear so I will be sending them for relapping at some point.
When I get a chance I will make some calls and see if I can get a little more info. Meantime I need to get a tone tape on and see what's up.
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Hi and respects to everyone.
I have been following Doc?s work on the Nagra T with some interest as I have had mine for some several years now. And while still deeply in love with it I have though sometimes wondered about it?s true and actual sound quality. While a joy to behold, wonderfully machined, electronically very complex (I have never understood how to fully work the time code system), it was of course designed for professional use and is thus is full of ?good engineering practice?, especially being a Nagra. But as was with most professional audio equipment, ultimate fidelity may not have been a top priority. Indeed when the basic two track machine was introduced (sometime late 1970?s?) the audio world had yet to discover those new uncertainties of subjectivity.
I am also lucky enough to have a Stellavox SU8 to play with, though without the ?interesting to use? large reel adapters. Both these machines form part of a small collection of what I think of as iconic tape recorders and are not much used for serious listening, Actually I have never bothered to set them up for the tape I have available (Quantegy 456 mostly) for a proper comparative listening session as neither machine is simple to re-align. The T which was factory set up for AGFA PEM468 requires the addition of different pre-aligned boards, and the Stellavox requires the changing of various hard wired components in the head block. As any serious recording here has for some time been done on DAT, CD-R and now hard disk, there seemed little point in spending time (and cash) tweaking what some would regard as very obsolete museum pieces, though present company excepted!
But you know I am not surprised that the T with all its internal connectors, out of favour op-amps, (and probably) logic controlled FET switches and the balancing transformers, and the metering bridge may have some fidelity issues. I was thinking along the same lines as Doc to get some sort of direct output from the playback head. Though while there is a very fine Nagra playback head, beautifully mounted in its solid machined head block, not knowing its characteristics I concluded that I could well be wasting my time in attempting a direct output. My machine is also fitted with the high speed dub output, which I assume bypasses most of the playback electronics. But there again probably also bypasses the de-emphasis network as well, so would be of little use as well. I did however consider taking a fairly direct output via the shorting links to the blank (and never used) noise reduction board area on the record / repro boards. A plug and quality wire from here to a nice phono socket at the front of the machine, together possibly with a change over switch (internal electronics or direct out) might be a possibility. While passing through some of the Nagra electronics; head preamp deemphasis etc, the signal would bypass much of the rest in the machine.
But now Doc is doing all the work and I await with interest his findings. As someone who has vaguely been around a few serious tape recorders over the years I would not be surprised if the Nagra T transport proved to be a near ideal if costly Tape Project chassis. On the other hand I would not be surprised if it didn?t (though I suspect it will prove to be better than the Technics) But in the mean time a Nagra T doesn?t actually have to do anything much to give one a nice cosy feeling inside?
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Thanks for your comments. I still haven't had the heads lapped yet. I did add a Y cable to the Repro output so that I can run the signal into the line input jacks of the Nagra in order to use the meters. 15kHz is down a little and I have the head trim a little on the high side to pull it back up, which makes response a dB or so hot at 10kHz. The bottom end sounds and measures very nice. My custom Tube Repro is in the construction queue behind one other, so I hope to have the whole thing together in another month or so.
Meantime it has been playing tape well. I took it over to Shunyata Research recently, where Caelin and Mino have been working on an interesting new listening room. It has all the electronics placed in a separate equipment room so you can concentrate more on the sound without the distraction of panel lights, spinning reels or turntables. The concept works well.
I have acquired some OPA2132PA ICs to try in place of the stock LF353s. I may try them in both the stock repro and record circuits, one channel at a time, to see if they improve anything.