Tape Project Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: xcortes on January 10, 2009, 09:57:31 PM
-
50% of the posts on this forum are complaints from people that has not received x, y or z tape. Even in threads not related to that. You wan't to get your music fast? Why don't you download something from itunes?
Sorry about the rant but this project is supposed to be something above those things.
-
50% of the posts on this forum are complaints from people that has not received x, y or z tape. Even in threads not related to that. You wan't to get your music fast? Why don't you download something from itunes?
Sorry about the rant but this project is supposed to be something above those things.
Guilty as charged sir.
I do think that many did not expect waits of one year however. (I am not at that mark for a couple of months yet)
I really went out on a limb to get a selective subscription to series one. It was a BIG DEAL financially to do even that!
I probably can't play in the series two league.
I do understand that this has been far more complex and labor intensive than anyone imagined to get going.
I really hope it continues to amaze people sound quality wise, and at least breaks even and hopefully is profitable at the new price points.
-
I don't want FAST MUSIC, I want better1 music.
1 Better is less irritating distortion for me.
I can think of several ways you can sell a copy of music
but how many will come back for repeat business.That is
the way of todays market place. Not here.
I would have to say I was farther on the limb than most,
but the main reason I had not the money saved was I never found
a R2R in Canada until at the last minute. The problem with
the tapes production, for selective subscriptions it seems only the
people on the front of the list are getting tapes and later people keep
getting pushed back on the list, or just pure bad luck when and what
you ordered.
PS. *How often you plan to play your Tape Project Tapes?*
Also Steveidosound have you received any tapes?
-
"Also Steveidosound have you received any tapes?"
Yes, at the risk of being completely redundant here (and I have only posted it to make sure the powers that be are sure of my status without bothering them with emails),
I am a selective subscriber. I subscribed last March.
I just got 005 a week or so ago.
Had 1,2 & 4
3 and 7 will complete my selective subscription.
I will be happy to just get my 6 and enjoy what I have unless or until I undergo a massive change for the better financially.
And as I also stated, I wish The Tape Project financial success. They can't sell tapes at a loss.
-
50% of the posts on this forum are complaints from people that has not received x, y or z tape. Even in threads not related to that. You wan't to get your music fast? Why don't you download something from itunes?
Sorry about the rant but this project is supposed to be something above those things.
My friend a part of having a forum is so that members and visitors alike have somewhere to get infomation about the TP tapes and it's going ons. Also it is theraputic for some to be able to vent a little, so if you are content with your position in this foray let others do what they feel is best for them. A little ranting and raving never really hurts anyone anyway, it is just letters on a screen.
Jay
-
You're right. However every other thread is contaminated by these type of complaints. For example, if there's a thread about the second series titles I would expect to read comments about the music, about who's heard the albums before, what's the quality of the performance and the recording, etc., instead of whether or not UPS delivers daily or not to some country or whether someone that suscribed when all the first series titles were announced should expect to receive his tapes immediately after suscription because he doesn't lke to read about the tapes from others instead of receiving them immediately.
So my point is not that people can't complain or express their views or experiences but rather that the appropriate threads should be used or started for such purpose.
-
Of course I'm right, and thanks for acknowledging that!!! (LOL)!!!
Jay
-
50% of the posts on this forum are complaints from people that has not received x, y or z tape. Even in threads not related to that. You wan't to get your music fast? Why don't you download something from itunes?
Sorry about the rant but this project is supposed to be something above those things.
50% ??? I'm sure its more like 0.1% and thats only if you call an enquiry a complaint, maybe more regular delivery status announcements would curtail the number of people asking. By the way, please don't mention itunes on this site !!!!
-
I think that the very nature of this project attracts folks that are more daring and willing to take a chance than the average audio guy. These same people also tend to be pretty opinionated and thoughtful. So, whatever the reason, we aren't going to see eye to eye all the time but overall, I think that this forum has been remarkably civil.
What Xavier suggests regarding starting new threads for venting or sharing the business end of things is a good idea but as we all know, sometimes threads evolve into this without anybody meaning to "hijack" the original subject.
Ideally, the major portion of this forum would be related to the theory and practice of the use of reel to reel tape and the Tape Project tapes in particular. I hope that it'll become a repository of information for beginners and more advanced users alike. If someone has come into possession of say a Revox PR99, I'd like them to be able to do a search for that deck and find everything they need for the proper care and feeding of that particular deck. I think that you'll agree that one or two years from now, that you wouldn't want someone to have to wade through posts about the current price increase. But, like I said, sometimes there's just no getting around it. But if you find yourself involved in a more personal discussion outside of the original subject, starting a new thread or even continuing by PM would be better.
Personally, I really enjoy hearing the thoughts and opinions of the members here. If I wanted the run of the mill opinions and characters, I'd join the local gym (or athletic club as they're called now). Sometimes that requires you to overlook some things that don't site quite right with you, but I think it's all part of life right?
Carry on,..
-
Steve, your the backbone of this forum and thats a compliment.
-
Well if Steve is the backbone, I must be the jaw bone of an ass.
I am as guilty as some for posting 'where for art thou posts?', but I tried to do it in an entertaining way.
It wasn't as though I was waiting for an organ donor shipment.
Maybe it is the time of year, or maybe it is the time of man, but I have taken note that the general tone of congenial discourse which Steve refers to has taken a turn towards a less restrained exchange on several threads which is unfortunate.
Anybody remember the slime pit rec audio became?
I agree with Xcortes that a number of threads have contained what to some may have been irrelevant postings, or took the original poster's intended point on an unintended tangent.
That may be as much a function of changing/improving the organization of the forum (as in the easy to find/comment title threads,) as unintentional disruption. Sometimes the replies take on a stream of consciousness type feel don't you think?
It is obvious that the status of a subscribers tape shipments is important to many people. I believe the TP management has tried to provide more personalized/prompt and confidential responses to these types of questions, but that improvement has been fairly recent if I am not mistaken.
Perhaps a more blatant effort needs to be pursued to point subscribers in the correct direction to obtain this information rather than leaving the subscriber to chance a random or repeated post in various threads in the hope of a reply.
I don't want to be preachy, but there are places in this world where folks would give everything they own to be able to spend a few peaceful minutes typing their thoughts about a pastime which brings them enjoyment.
The point?
Let's be considerate of one another.
Freely express your thoughts.
Be open to the enjoyment of different opinions.
Maintain a healthy perspective.
Learn new information which will enhance your enjoyment of rtr.
Have fun at the TP.
Or else!!!!!
(that's a joke)
-
I have been watching this forum closely and it has been enlightening. One thing I have learned is that TP subscribers are made up of those who can barely afford the series 1 prices and those who are very well-heeled. I suspect the well-heeled are in the minority.
For those of you who have complained about the recent price increases, a simple bit of homework would tell you that the tapes should never have been priced at $200 in the first place. Even if you already owned the master deck and the 4 slave decks, you simply can't pay for the licensing fees, over $100 for the raw tape, the cost of the deluxe boxes, artwork, metal reel engraving, the labor for tape duplication, and the cost of machine maintenance and expect to make a dime from this effort.
I initially toyed with the idea of setting up a complimentary business to the TP as I thought that most subscribers were well-heeled and would not be satisfied with being able to purchase 10 tapes per year and there would be a big enough market to fill the void. I did a business case analysis and quickly determined that you could not make money at $200 per release (2 tapes). The cost of buying 5 ATR 102 decks from ATR was quoted to me at $50K. Factor in everything I said above, and you see that the TP is not a business, it is a labor of love. Even at $300 per release, this is not a venture that would entice anyone to start a business to serve this niche market. And now knowing that many of the people on this forum can't afford $300 per release, you can see that one would be rather eccentric (i.e., crazy)to try and venture into this business. Everyone here who has bought TP tapes and enjoyed them should thank their lucky stars that the principals involved stuck their necks out and made this venture happen. It may never happen again by anyone else. If it does, expect to see prices around $500 per release.
-
Thanks, mep. We gave up trying to convince people that we were not crazy quite some time ago - we found that it was way too hard for us to pull off.
However before everyone starts passing out the hammers and nails for our coffin, I would remind folks that the one guaranteed thing about internet forums is the impression one gets of a "crisis" is always way out of proportion to the actual facts. While I'm not typing this from the TP corporate jet, Eileen did just sent a healthy deposit check to Paul to deposit in the TP bank account, due to the swift action of many renewing subscribers. Thanks to those fine folks who have subscribed! You are keeping the shelves full of tape stock and flanges.
Amongst the plans for growth this year, Eileen and I are looking for a new space to house both Bottlehead Corp. operations and the packaging and shipping dept. for TP. With this step, which will put all of the order processing and packaging and shipment under one roof, we foresee a ramping up of the delivery process and the ability to give very up to the minute status reports. We're hoping to find a space in the next month to six weeks. Meantime Romo is pulling double shifts (as we all are), mastering and packing/shipping, with nary a day off. Carly is cranking out tapes under Paul's supervision. And we are wearing out the printers up here getting the artwork to him as fast as possible without sacrificing quality.
-
It seems like you guys have gotten the production up to speed. Even though I can't say that I get my tapes much faster, cranking out those catch up runs and the simple fact that there are many more subscribers and real time tapes to make, I'm pretty happy!
I would like to thank all you guys for all the hard work and anxiety that we put you guys through. I'd also like to thank mep for helping to put some of this stuff in a better perspective.
When I put one of the Tape Project tapes on, and those first moments of sound reaches me, any thoughts about price and budget just falls away.
Obviously, this isn't for everyone. But for me, these are among the things that make life rich and satisfying. And knowing Doc, Paul and Michael, I find comfort in the knowledge that they will always maintain this level of quality.
Sermon over (at least this one!)
-
Thanks to Mep for putting so eloquently what a lot of us have probably wanted to say. I am in charge of budget for a non-profit organization. We are dependent on our municipality for tax payer dollars each year to keep our doors open. We are, in effect, a cost center not a profit center. I try to look at the Tape Project much in the same way I look at what our organization does. We cost money to operate, we do not produce profit, but we are providing something that people want, and are willing to pay for.
I feel very lucky to be in the position of being able to subscribe to the Tape Project, not only for the wonderful music it has provided, but also the level of quality and attention to detail that have gone into each and every release. I would rather there be delays in getting the product out there as long as the quality is there both in content and packaging.
Costs for raw materials have gone up. Costs for shipping have gone up. Costs for licensing have increased.
You LP listeners out there: how many have you bought 200g 45 rpm reissues of jazz and classical releases at $50.00 or more each? At $200.00 each for a copy so close to the master, it was a steal for the consumer and clearly a labor of love for the principals involved. At $300.00 per tape it is still a bargain if you calculate the cost to get it into your hands.
I just want to say how grateful I am to Doc, Paul, Romo, Eillen, and everyone who is working so hard to keep this going. While it may not be for everybody, those of us who are part of this should consider ourselves very fortunate, whether you are a selective, charter or individual subscriber. You are part of something truly unique.
BTW: My job is as Executive Director of a Library system. Hard times are good times for libraries. We are busier than ever while facing the same budgetary crisis as the rest of the country. Unlike retail, where sales are off, we are seeing more and more people through the door than ever..
End of rant
-
Umm Library. Do you have cassette or R2R for music?
I was looking at some 45 re-issuses ( 180 gram ) for the said $50 last night
and it seems that the TP just came out a little earlier than them.
I wonder how much TP influence had in bring out the 45's.
If I had a turntable, the 45's would be a addition to my music system
rather than reason not have a R2R.
-
Hi Joe, that's great that more folks are getting acquainted with the library system. I've alway thought it was a great asset to any community and is often taken for granted and under used. There's nothing better that having a comfortable, quiet place to sit and learn. I use mine like an oasis or if I have something I need to work on with no distractions. And they have an awesome AC system too!
-
Thanks, too, to MEP for his analysis and Doc's update. I started and ran a non-profit foundation for 10 years until I retired 16 months ago. It grew from one person to over 120 full time employees and $30M in annual revenue. By the time I retired we had about $2.5M in essentially fixed costs (administrative, financial, rent, insurance, communication, travel, etc.) That was a lot, but only about 7.5% of our annual revenue. For much smaller operations, the overhead is much larger with less economy of scale. What is very clear to me is that all of us benefit from the fact that Doc, Paul and Romo are charging us for only a little if any of the fixed cost portion of the Bottlehead business that the Tape Project represents. We are essentially paying for the marginal costs (it would be llike paying Microsoft for Office or Windows and only paying for the packaging and discs) and some depreciation for the equipment and some, but not all, of the labor costs. Since there is very little economy of scale (real time duplication with close QC monitoring), raw material that cannot be purchased in enough quantity for signficant volume discounts, high level customer service, etc. I think we have to bit the bullet on the price. Also, unlike other high end purchases (fancy cars, watches, designer clothes, private planes, etc.) this kind of pursuit of audio nirvana does not attract just the very wealthy who will often buy something just because it is exclusive with little consideration of price. So price is important, but quality of product is more important.
One piece of advice for Doc. Under promise and over deliver. For example, it probably would have diffused many of the concerns if you had signaled earlier about the price increase, even if it was only a guesstimate on the high side. Also, with a year plus production experience under your collective belts, it may be good to give overly long estimates of delivery times, to take into consideration potential shortages of raw materials (like the tape shortage), equipment breakdowns, problems with packaging materials, inefficiencies from having to fill partial orders, or late orders, etc. So when the price comes in at or lower than your signal and the product gets delivered earlier than promised, the customer is very happy. For example, it was a very good idea to change from dating the series' to numbering them.
We are very fortunate to be part of this wonderful project. Thank you Doc and Paul and Romo for the vision to put this together and the energy and spirit to keep it going.
Larry
-
I am not quite at the point where I am willing to thank the TP for not charging more money, however if we could all agree on the following perhaps we could obsess on some other aspect of the rtr experience.
1. TP tapes are premium products which command an appropriate price structure.
2. Regrettably some people may not be able to afford to pay this price without personal sacrifice.
3. The state of the economy has magnified the affordability issue for some subscribers.
4. Both TP owners and subscribers are exercising free will in all aspects of this process.
5. For the most part the TP is a cottage industry done in 'disposable personal time'.
6. Some economies may result as the learning curve straightens out, but for the most part;
7. It is what it is, and that is not necessarily bad by any means.
8. Some subscriber anxiety is not so much the price as the cash flow requirements.
9. We all enjoy listening to music.
10. Do original charter subscribers still get a complimentary TP take up reel?
(I threw that in to see if you were paying attention)
Has anyone heard from Robert lately?
-
Since I saw no way to reply to the original thread noted above, I will do some followup here. First to Paul Joppa: No, I wasn't speaking to you with regard to the 'curt' comment. I was, instead, speaking of Paul Stubblebine. I agree wholeheartedly with Larry regarding under promise and over deliver to management when dealing with your paying customers. As for Steveidosound saying, "I will be happy to just get my 6 and enjoy what I have unless or until I undergo a massive change for the better financially", when I can finally join you as a subscriber, I will, too, echo those sentiments myself. Finally, to Doc: No one is questioning your group's commitment to this project. My suggestions, as already given, are simply in light of the fact that there are problems with cost going up. As anyone who knows me will tell you, I'm a problem solver. That's what I do. You may not like or agree with the solutions I give, but they are solutions nonetheless. Ultimately, what bothers me the most is my dream of having this kind of quality reproduction in my own home is slipping away from me. Unless something drastic changes, I simply will have to fold my dealt hand, and walk away from the table. That's life, I suppose.
-
Umm Library. Do you have cassette or R2R for music?
I was looking at some 45 re-issuses ( 180 gram ) for the said $50 last night
and it seems that the TP just came out a little earlier than them.
I wonder how much TP influence had in bring out the 45's.
If I had a turntable, the 45's would be a addition to my music system
rather than reason not have a R2R.
Ben:
Not sure where u got your 45 rpm info from? The 45 rpms, namely Analologue Productions, came out way before the tape project w3as ever a glimmer in Doc's and colleagues eye. There wasn't any connection to the tape project promoting the 45rpms. The 45 rpms are btw, esp. Chad's Riversides and Pablo reissues, simply outstanding.The better the system gets, the more one appreciates just how good a job SH did in mastering these gems.
Myles
Myles
-
For example: one of the releases set for Series II is "Church Windows" a Respighi composition. It was released on heavy vinyl at 45 rpm in the late 1980's, as was RR's "Dafos" with Mickey Hart, Airto, Flora Purim.
180 and 200 g 45 rpm new releases and reissues have been around for quite some time. Some reissues are now out of print: The 45 rpm of the Mercury "Firebird" w/ Dorati and the LSO. Hard to find and even pre-owned ones command in excess of $250.00. Roger Waters' "Amused to Death" two-disc 33 1/3 rpm goes for well over $300.00.
It's all about the individual desire and willingness to pay. I won't question anyone's motivation, be it cache, exclusivity, or love of music. It doesn't matter.
Ben-
Sorry, no cassettes or RtoR. We did do vinyl back in the day though. An upside to this job, we get thousands of donations of LPs for our book sales, and I go through before they hit the sale rack..
-
It just seems strange I missed the web links for 45's. The TTP I always heard
about , but the lack of a deck and good speakers kept me from even thinking
about buying. I knew they were reissuing LP's, but 45's I only found out with
the grumbling over series II tape prices.
-
Try www.acousticsounds.com as a starting place for the 45's. They have everything in print, and also a few out of print and used items.