Tape Project Forum
Tape Machines => Reel to Reel Tape Machines => Topic started by: jtwrace on February 02, 2009, 05:25:56 PM
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I'm new this...
My question is what machine should I get? Obviously reasonably priced but something that I can upgrade if I wanted to. Also, will it sound "better" then digital in the stock format (no upgrades)? I know it doesn't take much in vinyl to sound more appealing to me so I was wondering about this..
Thanks-
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Hi, welcome to the forum. To answer your question, I guess it depends on how you intend to use it? If you're planning on subscribing to the Tape Project tapes, with a properly set up Otari 5050 series, Technics RS series, are both excellent machines. With the use of an playback amplifier upgrade, a machine that's running up to spec (this usually involves some repairs even if it was running perfectly when it was put into storage) the Tape Project tapes will sound better than any source outside of a better tape machine. Digital that I've heard really isn't even in the same ball park and there are a few upper tier vinyl sources that our members own that does come close, but we're talking about $20k+ vinyl front ends here.
When it comes to bang for the buck, it's going to be pretty tough to beat the Otari 5050 (there are several models out there with different features so doing a little searching will help you to decide which is for you). Take some time and try and get out and look at a couple (they come along on Craigs list fairly often) to know what you're looking at. Some can be pretty worn out from being used at radio stations but sometimes this is impossible to tell from the pictures on auction sites unless you know what to look for (razor slices around the headblock etc).
If you're totally new to magnetic tape, there's a "Beginners Guide" sticky at the top of the General forum that will help you to get a basic understanding. Another good resource for info is the Tape Trail forum on Audio Asylum. Doing a search for Otari both here and there will yield plenty of info to help you with a hunt.
As far as how these tapes will sound with a stock, well adjusted machine, I have to admit that mine was already modified when the first Tape Project tapes were released so I'll leave it to others to relate those impression to you. But, on the other hand, the changes I'd made were to wire the playback directly from the playback heads of my Technics to a modified Bottlehead Seduction. Total price for these mods were under $300.
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Thanks for the reply. I went through the thread as you suggested. WOW! I might have missed it but....I've come up with that the Otari, Technics 1500 and ATR-102 seem to be the recommended units. What about Technics? Is there a comparison anywhere? I know it's subjective (as all HiFi is) but am curious to know if say the Otari will get you 85% of the ATR or what the main sonic differences are. If money was a non issue I would probably get the ATR. So, I want a reliable unit that I can enjoy for years even if I were to upgrade. Thoughts/models?
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Name sound familiar. Would you be from the M/L forum?
The Technics decks are wildly popular, partially because they're great machines, but perhaps equally so because of their use among the tape project crowd. Tough to get parts for, as anything that appears on the auction site commands big prices. Good decks can be had, though.
I've seen quite a few Otari decks, most were beat to all heck. That being said, the people that were using them really liked them. They have some nice features and found their way into many a small studio. I'd like to find a clean one for the audio room.
The ATR is a different story. Expensive from the get-go, and likely even more so to maintain. Used machines often need considerable work...nice ones sell quickly. Then again, I've seen some rough 102's sell quickly, for prices that would knock you out of your seat.
Tj
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Name sound familiar. Would you be from the M/L forum?
The Technics decks are wildly popular, partially because they're great machines, but perhaps equally so because of their use among the tape project crowd. Tough to get parts for, as anything that appears on the auction site commands big prices. Good decks can be had, though.
I've seen quite a few Otari decks, most were beat to all heck. That being said, the people that were using them really liked them. They have some nice features and found their way into many a small studio. I'd like to find a clean one for the audio room.
The ATR is a different story. Expensive from the get-go, and likely even more so to maintain. Used machines often need considerable work...nice ones sell quickly. Then again, I've seen some rough 102's sell quickly, for prices that would knock you out of your seat.
Tj
That's me! Hmm.
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Tj, I have a Technics RS1500 and I love it. I bought it when the Tape Project was just a glimmer in Doc, Paul and Romo's eyes. Even then, they weren't exactly cheap. Buying a really nice one today tends toward the $1k mark and above. I just think that at the current prices and the potential sound quality (with modifications) that the Otari is what I'd probably buy if I was starting out fresh today. In a nut shell, I think that the Technics are overpriced and the Otari is under priced on the used market. You might have to look a little harder for a minty 5050 but there are so many of them out there that you will. Add to that the fact that there are still parts being made and Doc is reporting some excellent results with his tweaks, I think it's the better choice today.
On the other hand, and ATR102 is a serious contender for the best machine money can buy. There are others like the Studer A820 and the Nagra T. All of these machines are much more of a commitment in money and time. Having a used machine that's in good condition brought up to it's full potential is probably going to cost more than an Otari or Technics maxed out. You'd be well advised to send the machine to one of the top technicians who specialize in that particular machine ( usually for several months ). Hey, you could get lucky though and find one that's already been gone through by one of a handful of guys that really know what they're doing and put down your $10-20k and call that journey done.
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My Technics 1506 is a great machine; sound is superb and it handles tape pretty nicely. It is well-constructed and durable. I have a Seduction on order, and with that it will be the main source machine in my listening room. That being said, I had to consider more than a few 1500-series machines before purchasing mine, mainly due to the very-limited supply of replacement parts.
It is my understanding that there is a good parts supply for the Otari decks, especially since the last version of the MX5050BIII (?) was discontinued only a while back. (again...?....thats what I have been told).
The bix Ampexes, and perhaps Studers, take a significant commitment to get into. Parts and repair can be costly, and their setup is more in-depth than consumer decks. I am talking mainly from the ATR standpoint, as I know nothing about Studer decks. I occasionally come across a large multi-track Studer, but cant seem to get a feel for what it would take to convert it to 1/4" tape, both in monetary terms and work effort.
My ATR-800, which is not in the same league as the 100 series, cost more to get 'audio-room ready' than I spent on all of my other machines combined!
Tj
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I think that no matter how far you think you want to go up the ladder of tape machines, it's a good idea to have a little more patience than your run of the mill audio purchase. There's a lot to learn and unless you have the money to hire the best to get your machine running perfectly, it's better to start small and work your way up.
I'm not sure about the rest of the members here, but I love fooling around with these things! I really think that if you don't learn some basic adjustments and repairs on your machine, you're missing out on some of the fun. I've made my fair share of mistakes but nothing that I can't get right eventually (knock on wood).
Of course, everyone doesn't have this particular screw loose and there's nothing wrong with taking a more plug and play approach.
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I think that no matter how far you think you want to go up the ladder of tape machines, it's a good idea to have a little more patience than your run of the mill audio purchase. There's a lot to learn and unless you have the money to hire the best to get your machine running perfectly, it's better to start small and work your way up.
I'm not sure about the rest of the members here, but I love fooling around with these things! I really think that if you don't learn some basic adjustments and repairs on your machine, you're missing out on some of the fun. I've made my fair share of mistakes but nothing that I can't get right eventually (knock on wood).
Of course, everyone doesn't have this particular screw loose and there's nothing wrong with taking a more plug and play approach.
Yes. What are your thoughts on a Teac 4300? I know of one from a VERY trustworthy person....quality? Sound?
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It all depends on what you're planning to do with the machine. If you're looking for a machine to play Tape Project tapes the Teac 4300 wouldn't be suitable. There's a sticky at the top of this forum that has the basic requirements for playing the TP tapes. If you're interested in playing 7" tapes like are sold on eBay and were sold from the 60's-80's, the 4300 would be able to play these but there are much better machines out there for that purpose. One of the reasons that the Technics and Otari decks are so popular around here is they are two of the only machines that will do both ( generally a 3 head deck won't but the Technics and Otari 5050 are 4 head).
One thing to keep in mind when buying an old machine (even from a trusted friend) is that these are mechanical devices. And just like finding a mint sports car in a barn, it's going to need some work to get it to run properly. You might as well get something that's worth the trouble of either doing the work yourself or paying to have it done.
So, spend a little time and decide if you want a machine to just play Tape Project tapes, or do you want to collect old tapes too. Also, you may want to do some live recording or record records.
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Yes, I want to play Tape Project tapes as well as be able to record some of my vinyl.
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Get the Otrari and be done with it, you won't be sorry.
It is the best bang for the buck out there right now.
Jay
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Get the Otrari and be done with it, you won't be sorry.
It is the best bang for the buck out there right now.
Jay
Who is the best trustworthy source for them?
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You can find them everywhere ... In a box ... with a fox.
Ebay is most likely your best bet, but a few show up
elsewhere like here http://www.audioasylum.com/index.htm
see classifieds. Remember shop carefully and
make sure it is well packed
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If you live in or near a decent sized city, try Craig's list first. That way you can see the item before you buy it. Folks will very often demo it for you without you having to ask. Being able to spend 30 minutes or so just going through all of the functions (push every button and throw every switch) will almost always show something that's either scratchy sounding (dusty pots, switches) or sluggish/sticking (gummed up or hardened grease) that might even drop the price a little. I'd figure on the first couple to be learning experiences so don't go on any long "road trips" to see them. Of course, you never know, the first one could be a gem.
Another place that's often overlooked are checking with your local tape deck repair guy. There's almost always a couple of guys that either have a shop whose ad actually mentions tape machines. Sometimes there's a shop that specializes in refurbished older gear and they usually carry reel to reels. Careful with these guys since much of the time they have someone else doing the work so they will "pad" the price so they make plenty of profit.
I know there was a guy that used to have them on eBay all the time who was down in Florida. IIRC Dave Pouge, who's a member here and posts quite a bit over on Audio Asylum's Tape Trail, had a few dealings with him and had nothing bad to say about him. You might PM him here or he might see this post and divulge the sellers contact info.
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Get the Otrari and be done with it, you won't be sorry.
It is the best bang for the buck out there right now.
Jay
Who is the best trustworthy source for them?
Ebay may be your best bet if you cnanot find someone who is willing to sell you his. That guy down in Fla. is pretty good from what I understand, Craigslist as well. Just start watching ebay and get yourself familiar with the decks on there and wait for what appears to be a good deal. Of course you can always come back here and ask the guys here what they think of the deck you are looking at.
Jay
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Yes ... the drool factor for that machine. :)
The other factor is the space needed for the R2R. Even the small decks still
take up room and tend to be happy away from speakers and TV's.