Get Wired Direct

[ceved]

I am almost afraid to ask if anyone has/is/ or plans to experiment with different types/manufacturers of wiring used to provide direct playback head output?
Mike at ATR showed me the tiny little space in the 102 where the wire has to go.
I can tell you that there is not much space; so heavy gauges need not apply.
The same is likely true for other machines as well.
Anyone care to share?
Thanks group!

[ironbut]

Hi Charles, it sounds like your ATR experience is going well. There's always a lot of questions with this kind of stuff and while I'm still using the stock internal wiring in my Technics, I can say that the choice of cabling from the output jacks I installed on the back of my machine (Vampire female RCA's) to my Repro amp and the ones from the Repro to my preamp have a real effect on the character on the final sound. I'm a big believer in system matching so until I start my experiments on the internal wiring I'm reluctant to say how much I "think" that might improve what I already have. As far as the wiring between my 1500 and the Repro, I've been proceeding on the assumption that being a very small signal, it is similar to a MC cartridge output. I've tried a few phono cables and most of them have leaned too far in one direction or the other. Some cables have had great details and toe tapping PRAT but lack bass and are little shy in the midrange body dept.. My old standby (which I usually use on my turntable) is beautiful sounding but lacking in details and PRAT. Then I got a chance to buys an IC from the same company and had intended to try it to get that phono cable back on my vinyl rig. Well, in that position, it didn't make a huge difference so I tried it between the Repro and preamp. BAM! What a difference. All the details and PRAT, the best bass I'd heard yet and still that lovely lush sound. So I tried a couple of the other phono cables I'd tried before (between the 1500 and the Repro) and nope,.. it sounded exactly like what I'd remembered. I'm reluctant to say what kind of cables they are because I have little doubt that the same experiment could be replicated with other good cables. So, I've contacted the maker of my cables and described what I need to wire directly from the heads to the Repro or to the jacks on the back of the Technics. Since that last improvement, I have my doubts that it could get much better from just cables but that won't stop me. I'm waiting to upgrade my heads before I do that though.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that when the sound is as pristine and clear as the TP tapes are, the interactions between every component in the chain become more important. Balancing the whole system and meticulous adjustments bring easily audible results.
So what could this mean to you (sorry about going on like that Charles, I guess I've been holding that in for a while)?  If I were in your position, I'd trust Mike to use the best wire internally. But if it's possible, I'd try to have the accessible connections done so you can experiment yourself. If there's wiring between the deck and the Aria, try and have it done with cables you can change.

[Studer Fool]

Well, Doc (or anybody) correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the heads on the Technics (and the Ampex 102?) are high impedance.  I mention this, as the analogous situation on a turntable is to MM (moving magnet) cartridges, rather than the MC (Moving coil) that Steve mentions.  This distinction matters as the cable capacitance will have a greater effect in this situation than it will with low impedance heads (which by-the-way, are less often encountered).  Thus, one potentially fruitful approach suggested by this knowledge, is to favor those cable choices from past experience that were most agreeable with MM cartridges.
Charles, the signal currents here are low and thus you're correct that large gauge is not required.  Sadly I have not scored an ATR 100 manual to check, but I'd be concerned that balanced wiring may be a more important consideration here so as to match balanced electronic inputs.  Possible choices are single strand twisted pair or litz such as Cardas tone-arm wire.  Shielding is always desirable, even when not strictly required, assuming it may be physically accommodated (and the capacitance OK).  What did Ampex choose, and what does Mike suggest?  Frankly what those two sources indicate is probably far more important guidance for you than what anyone here is going to say.  That said, I would love to hear what Doc's experience is.

Yours Truely,
cdw

[stellavox]

I'd suggest that blue Cardas cable which I believe Doc supplies or can supply.  It's very nice two conductor with shield - can try grounding the shield to the head (somehow).

Charles K.

[ceved]

Thanks to one and all for your kind and helpful suggestions.

Mike is in many respects the type of person that writes in to the popular trade magazines and says basically, wire is wire.
It does what it does.  We use the stuff that works well.
I can only tell you what the science is not the sound.
A very straight forward, practical professional engineer response with which I take no issue.
These are my words not Mike's.

My initial question was with the internal wiring of the ATR, not the 'inner connect' between the Aria and the preamp; although some of your responses address the latter rather than the former.
I was getting to that later, you just  beat me to it.
Mike is very keen on the issue of his wire, so I know he is on it, but the Cardas suggestion is intriguing as a number of TT manufacturers use it.  I will investigate that further.
While Mike has done a few of his makeovers for audio enthusiasts, the bulk of his customers seem to be for the more practical professional user type with different but complimentary criteria and price points.
This wire thing is akin to a movie combining the plot lines of the Money Pit with the Swamp Thing to be the Green Back Quagmire.
Perhaps Mike will have to come up with his "I can hear the grass grow" edition for audiophiles.
I'm sick, I'm sick, please take my money quick!


As for the space between the Aria and the preamp, for better or worse, Spectral is keen on MIT cable and thus my system uses their cables exclusively.
Unfortunately the MIT cables uses those blasted network boxes which on a short run of 1.5 meters or less become a real pain.
Hanging chads have nothing on suspending these little network bricks from their Velcro slings. If you do not have a body width between the back of your equipment racks and the rear wall oh brother!!!!!!!

It looks as though we are going to get blasted with storms again so if you don't hear from me for a few days, I probably lost power again.
With a near record heat wave here in the Nation's Capital, the chances appear pretty good that the dogs days will get here early.
If it is worse, check with Mike he may have a real good deal on a 102 for you to consider!
Auntie Em Auntie em where is Toto?!!!!!

[PJ]

Well, Doc (or anybody) correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the heads on the Technics (and the Ampex 102?) are high impedance.
....

I believe the stock Technics head is pretty much the same as the custom head we use, around 200mH and squarely in the middle of "medium impedance". The high impedance heads (500-1000mH) have high output which is good for use with tubes, but they have a head resonance around 20kHz which must be optimally damped to maintain a flat measured response, and the methods of damping are not always satisfactory to critical listeners. The medium impedance heads will resonate nearly an octave higher, where damping is not so critical with respect to flat measured response, so there is more scope for circuitry to be subjectively optimized.

To avoid bringing this resonance down, it remains true that the capacitance should not become too great. But for short cables it is probably more important to use a cable with a good-sounding dielectric, than one with an ultra-low capacitance.

Note that I am not making any specific recommendations about cables, wire, or dielectrics. The whole area is one that gives engineers the willies because there are few if any known measurements that correlate with what we hear. We'd usually rather pretend we don't hear it!

[JoeG]

Like Steve (ironbut), I have been experimenting with cable between my 1500 and Seduction. I have tried two different models/lengths of cable from the same manufacturer and really prefer one over the other with respect to soundstage, bass and timing. The first was shielded silver cable, the second was copper shielded. The silver won hands down.

From the Seduction to the line stage of my tube preamp, I conducted a similar experiment, starting with the same silver I preferred between the 1500 and Seduction, in a slightly longer length. In this case, the copper was the clear winner, with greatly improved image height and bass articulation.

So - we have a hybrid setup: 1/2 meter of shielded silver between the 1500 and Seduction, and a 2 meter length of copper from the Seduction to the line stage.

[ironbut]

In my current set up, I use 1 meter for each cable pair. They are all shielded and silver. The chassis wire that comes stock in the 1500 looks to be 20AWG (just eyeballing that though) stranded copper. Here's a thread from the early daze of the TP regarding the spec's on the heads that have been mentioned.

http://www.tapeproject.com/smf/index.php/topic,31.0.html

[mikel]

phono cable, particularly tonearm wire, matters. it's logical that the tiny signal coming off a phono cartridge will be more affected by wire performance than a line level signal. i've done dozens of tests on this issue. maybe the signal coming off tape heads is somewhat different; but i would guess that whatever cable is used between the heads and head amp will have a clear affect.....and for sure it will be the most significant cable in the signal path.

one obvious problem with tonearm cable is that the tiny signal does not breakin the cable very quickly. it can take hundreds of hours before the cable settles down and is optimal. it can be dry, congested and closed in to begin with, and then go thru different moods as breakin occurs.

one solution is to use a high level signal to precondition the cable before it is used. for tonearms there are products sold to allow you to run a line-level signal thru the tonearm cable. it turns out it is even important to run the signal in the same direction that it will be used.

i know many believe wire is wire. but for others who may feel differently, i just wanted to point out that breakin of wire used for low level signals is especailly important.

[mep]

I have always been perplexed with regards to directionality claims for an AC signal.  Directionality would make sense if you were sending a DC signal across a wire, but not AC.  No where in high end audio is there more B.S. and snake oil than in cable marketing (can anyone explain what "poles of articulation" means in electrical terms-or any terms for that matter?).  No where else in high end audio is there higher profit margins for any product than there is for cables which explains why there are so many cable manufacturers.

I have always steered clear of cables with "network boxes" because it seems to me that you are paying high prices for what is essentially some type of equalizer that you are now inserting between your amp and speakers and I am not fond of inserting more passive devices after my amp and before the crossover network of my speakers.  I think this is a solution in search of a problem and I don't care how many poles of articulation it has.

As for tonearm wire and tapehead wire, I think the most important characteristic you are looking for is how well shielded the cable is in order to prevent hum problems (you also want low resistance and capacitance).  It is amazing how many expensive interconnects are made that have no shielding and with long runs you now have an antenna in your listening room.

[mikel]

i have no delusions about changing people's minds on cable performance differences and won't participate in any dialog in that direction in this forum.....experience tells me it is a waste of bandwidth.....and very polarizing. i'd rather have a root canal.

[mep]

I know different brands of cables sound different-that was not my point.  I have a bunch of different cables such as MIT, Kimber, AQ, etc.  Lately I have been buying cables from Bluejeans cable company.  Their interconnects are made from Belden wire, they are well shielded, and they sound good.  Unlike so many cable companies, Belden is actually a manufacturer of cables and has been in business for many years and makes specialized cables for specialized applications.  They actually know what they are doing.  Cables should be designed by engineers, not marketing people and magicians.

As for me, I would much rather have someone explain to me and make me understand why it matters if I flip my cable around against the direction of the arrow pointing the direction of electron flow than have a root canal.  I have had root canals and I would much rather learn something than have a root canal any day.

[AlexZ]

As for me, I would much rather have someone explain to me and make me understand why it matters if I flip my cable around against the direction of the arrow pointing the direction of electron flow than have a root canal.  I have had root canals and I would much rather learn something than have a root canal any day.

Hi everyone,
In most cables shield is grounded on one side only - usually at the source.
BTW "phono cable, particularly tonearm wire, matters. it's logical that the tiny signal coming off a phono cartridge will be more affected by wire performance than a line level signal."  That's very questionable statement, much more important is the  internal impedance on the source, that is low for MC and relatively high for many tube line level devices.
Speaking of a playback head output,  I'm using Mogami microphone cable on the Technics 1506 to modified EAR 834P and it works well.
Thank you,
Alex

[mep]

Mogami microphone cable makes great interconnect cable.  I know, I have owned a pair for many years and they sound great.  My 20 something year old pair is still doing duty as subwoofer interconnects in my ht system.

[AlexZ]

Mogami microphone cable makes great interconnect cable.  I know, I have owned a pair for many years and they sound great.  My 20 something year old pair is still doing duty as subwoofer interconnects in my ht system.

I'm in downtown Toronto, my neighbors are CN tower and about few hundreds HF transmitters. My biggest concern for 2mv signal is RF rejection - Mogami quad does the job very well.