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Author Topic: How about machines for recording  (Read 12030 times)

Offline xcortes

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How about machines for recording
« on: November 15, 2008, 07:13:58 AM »
99% of this forum's machine related discussion has to do with plaback (in the end this is the TP's forum!) but for a change let me try to open a discussion abut machines for recording so here's many questions to foster a discussion in case anyone is interested.

What would be a good machine for recording? The tape transport issues that apply to playback apply also to recording -I guess-. However most machines'l, internal electronics are not considered good around here and most of us use external repro amps with our decks. Are we stuck with internal electronics when recording?

Assuming one has a good enough source what would be a nice recording machine? I guess 15ips and 1/2 track would be requirements and IEEC would be nice but NAB would probably do. Which of the pro machines have nicer recording electronics? What about the prosumer or consumer machines? And what about the portable Stellavoxes and Nagras?

Finally, what recording electronics do Tape Project Ampex ATR 100s recorders have?


Xavier Cortes

Offline docb

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2008, 11:19:11 AM »
Recording is a pretty broad topic. Are you recording live music, dubbing LPs,  recording in the field? There are particular types of machines that might be best for each application depending upon your need for mic connection, portability, etc.

In general the record electronics on a lot of machines are much better than the playback electronics. I don't know why. We use the stock record electronics in the ATR 100 slaves, which are quite good. The Big Inch uses custom record electronics by Tim de Paravicini.
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Offline ironbut

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2008, 11:40:42 AM »
I've heard the same thing that Doc has expressed many times especially regarding pro-sumer decks. I have a theory (and this is my theory about the brontosaurus, ah-hem) that the record electronics was something that most manufacturers had no experience designing. And since they didn't have assembly lines that were already making boards that could just be altered (like the playback circuits) and they had to start from scratch. I believe that they copied already existing circuits from the pro audio industry and as a result ended up with designs that were above the level of the price point ( remember, those were the days when folks used to complain that the Japanese always copied designs).
The motivation to make these circuits the best they could would be the way that the spec's of these machines were published (signal to noise, THD etc. were measured from record with playback.
Just a totally homespun theory but there it is,..
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline Ben

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2008, 12:10:32 PM »
I say a huge comet killed the dinos... I put the blame on the totem pole outputs
of all your op amps. It is only now that we are seeing that class A outputs ( tube )
are the most linear and free of distotion. Back in the 70's more transitors was the selling point. And we are sadly stuck with that idea today!
Set 45,Open baffle speakers,Otari 5050,,Pioneer DV-79AVi DVD/CD/SCAD player

Offline steveidosound

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2008, 02:31:56 PM »
I have been told (and repeated here) that it's an easier task to get signal on to tape well than to get it off again, which makes some sense when you think about it. Reading that tiny  AC  fluctuating magnetic signal  off the head accurately and amplifying it without adding noise or distortion is not that trivial of a task.
That having been said, Ben, there were consumer full stereo tape recorders with microphones and amps and speakers built in the 60s that used 5 TUBES ! total ! And one of those was the rectifier! ( Don't ask me how I know these things - but you could guess) That's right. Two tubes per channel for everything! One was typically a 12A*7 of some sort which took care of mic/head preamp chores with clever switching and the other was typically a 6BM8 triode/power pentode which provided one more stage before the power output section. The bias oscillator was done by converting one of the output amplifiers to that duty during record with more clever switching. So, 3 triode stages for everything excluding driving the speaker. Mic./line to head and on playback head to line out, then through the power pentode to the speaker.
The reason for all this "minimalist high end triode" and "single ended class A output" stuff was pure COST :) They were too cheap to put in more stages.
That became much easier with transistors and then multiple transistors then op amps. So we went very far the other direction in the 70s.
The balance and trade off is always trying to feed the signal through a minimal amount of stages, but with careful design  so as to achieve the best quality.
Steve Williams

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Offline Ben

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2008, 07:53:46 PM »
please send the schematic you have under the table .... I will not tell anybody
until after the beast glows back at me. :)
 
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Offline xcortes

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2008, 10:25:39 PM »
Quote
Are you recording live music, dubbing LPs,  recording in the field? There are particular types of machines that might be best for each application depending upon your need for mic connection, portability, etc.

I've been toying the idea of recording live performaces broadcasted on FM. There's two classical stations on Mexico city. One of them broadcasts the concerts of one of the two Mexico's most important orchestras, the other those of the other. Moreover one of them also broadcasts live performances of smaller orchestra's or enssembles on Tuesday nights. I first have to setup a good antenna (I've been living outside of the city for four years now) and see if the performance's and the broadcast are worth pursuing this.

In my Technics I'm having the record and erase heads substituted by dummy ones to avoid a mistake with my TP tapes so I'm looking into another options. I have the Tascam but the more I try it the more it looks like I will need to put some time into it and maybe some money (at the moment both of them a a very scarce resource for me!).
Xavier Cortes

Offline ironbut

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 10:45:56 AM »
Hey Xavier, I'm not trying to ignore this thread (or you) but I'm trying to gather some info for you and a few others regarding record amp mods for the 1500.
 Every once in a while I try and pick up a second headblock so I can have one dedicated for recording and have a backup so having any head work done would be less painful. The dummy heads have a very small contact area compared to the normal headwrap so it should help the playback sound. I think that Doc and the gang have really done a lot of work and come up with some heavy duty improvements in the whole tape path mod. I think you're going to be real happy that you bit the bullet and sent your machine to him.
Another big plus with those dummy heads is they won't wear like the record head will. That's another reason I'd like to get a recording headblock. I'm not even that sure that I'd change the record head but if I could keep it from getting worn when I'm playing tapes back (which is 99% of the time) I'd never have to consider having them relapped.
Regarding recording from FM, don't forget that the Technics (and many other machines for that matter) have timer switching built in for just that reason. Just don't leave the cat in the room with a running reel to reel without human supervision. I had a roommate that did that and when he came home, the cat( UnderDog ) had pulled tape two rooms away!
steve koto
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Offline xcortes

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 11:20:18 AM »
Thanks Steve

Quote
very once in a while I try and pick up a second headblock so I can have one dedicated for recording

Is the change of the headblock so easy as to have two headblocks and switch between them without doing any other adjustments? If so and if you come up with the record amps mods I guess finding a second headblock in good shape maybe the ticket for me. Let's just keep each other posted when bidding for one to avoid bidding against each other.

I have a very good FM player (McIntosh MR-78 with Modaferri mods) currently at the office but I wouldn't mind bringing it home for recording.
Xavier Cortes

Offline ironbut

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 12:20:28 PM »
I've heard that the Modaferri Mac's are the best. MacIntosh always took a lot of pride in their tuners.
Pulling the headblock is just 3 hex head screws. After you pull those stainless steel screws the headblock just plugs into a multipin connector on the machine. It just pulls straight out. Regarding the alignment of a headblock, if the guides are left on, the alignment is referenced to the guides that are closest to the capstan. They are fixed guides and the rest of the guides and heads are adjusted to the fixed guides position. I think for the few times I'd be recording, I'd leave those top guides in place so there wouldn't have to be any tweaking (the guides above the capstan might need a touch of adjustment but that's pretty simple) when I wanted to use that headblock.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
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Offline steveidosound

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Re: How about machines for recording
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2008, 02:18:37 PM »
please send the schematic you have under the table .... I will not tell anybody
until after the beast glows back at me. :)
 

I have that schematic. Don't know if my PM worked.
Email me.
 - Steve
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...