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Author Topic: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !  (Read 14337 times)

Offline funbebop

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new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« on: April 03, 2009, 12:52:20 PM »
Hi Tape folks,

Hi I'm new to the forum and will be a newbie owner of a Revox A-77.  Thanks to everybody for composing the "Beginner's Guide"; it will take me a little while to understand and grasp that information.  I'm purchasing a Revox A-77 if very good condition from a local audio shop that deals in repair and sales of all types of equipment.  However, they do deal in vintage audio products of many types.  I'm wondering what I'm going to get into owning such vintage equipment.  I'm somewhat used to older equipment and love the analog sound after years of digital experience.  I still choose to use digital in multi-track applications for music recording, but for casual listening to music, I prefer the pure analog pathway to a degree.  I've heard the difference between a nice clean LP and CD, and there is a give and take on both sides, but I really prefer the analog sound. 

I did see the post about converting a Revox A-77 to half track, and I like the option but I don't really like the expense and hassle to see this happen.  I did some preliminary research on the A-77 and it seems to have favorable reviews for home "consumer' use, it seems to have parts and service somewhat still available.  I believe that the A-77 has servo motors, right?  I guess I'm looking for a experience of taking my sealed LP's and making nice reel recordings, and also my own original recordings (not for mastering uses).  I believe that there is a "tone" that comes from this type of equipment especially in tandem with decent analog amplification and good quality speakers.   

Here's what I'm using so far:

Thorens TD-125 MK II w/ SME 3009 arm (R2), Grado Cartridge ZF2, (stylus?)>TEC 753LC RIAA phono preamp>Dynaco ST-70 Tube Amp>Bose 301 Series II

Sony consumer CD player>optical out>TEC-7510 D/A converter (w/ Burr Brown PCM 1716 IC chip)

OK, the weird part is all of that before it goes to my Dynaco ST-70 tube is fed into my DAT with Super Bit Mapping

Sony DAT ZA5ES  analog in and analog out to the dynaco , this is a very HQ D/A conversion, that in my opinion warms up the analog signal so well and gives it nice "color" very warm and wet sounding....so in effect, I'm taking all that analog putting it into digital then analog as well....it does sound good and I don't hear anymore S/N issues , I'm sure it could be measured, but it sounds so good even on these little 301's....I"m looking at some Klipsch La Scalla II's from the mid 80's for speaker upgrade...I might ditch the DAT conversion, but it will probably still sound good. 

Thanks for the bandwith...drop by my myspace site to hear some beatle covers and other cover stuff, and requests are appreciated !!!

www.myspace.com/donnieloeffler

www.jazzcrafters.com

any ideas or advice to a future reel to reel owner is greatly appreciated! - THANKS


mep

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 04:27:33 PM »
The Revox A-77 is an "ok" deck.  If you are just going to make recordings for yourself, I would highly recommend just recording in one direction on each tape so you save yourself the 4 track noise factor.  I just sold a Revox A-77 and I took a beating on it.  It was a one-owner deck and was supposedly completely serviced.  When I first got it, it did work great.  Then I sent it off to JM Technical Arts and he charged me over $300.00 to replace a bunch of parts (on top of the $389 I paid for the deck because it was a one owner and serviced before I bought it) but at least JM didn't charge me for the crack he put in my veneer.  I ended up getting $300 for it on Fee Pay.

The reality is the record/playback electronics in the A-77 are very noisy.  Tapes spinning at 7 1/2 ips per second with no noise reduction are noisy in the first place.  Expect to hear plenty of hiss from this machine.  If you can tolerate the noise, it is a fairly good sounding machine.  When you compare it to a more professional deck, it appears almost toy-like in comparison.  If you are not going to be playing 4 track prerecorded tapes, you would have been much better off buying something like an Ampex ATR-700 which can still be had dirt cheap.  Now you have a deck that can record at 15 ips 2 track with either IEC or NAB equalization.  And of course, it will play back the TP tapes.  Good luck with your new deck.

Offline ironbut

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2009, 12:13:13 AM »
Hi funbebop, welcome to the forum. The first real tape recorder I ever bought was an A-77 back in the 70's. As you can tell by reading the "Beginners Guide", there's quite a bit to learn but that's the nice thing about a hobby. There's no big hurry! And you certainly don't need to know all that stuff inside and out to enjoy the things you can do with magnetic tape but I'm glad you've found it helpful. My hopes for the guide is to pick up where the owners manuals leave off but it doesn't presume to replace a manual for your particular machine. Revox writes some very comprehensive guides to their machines and you should do your best to find one.
If you got your machine from a shop, you have the advantage of having someone to do the small adjustments that sometimes rear their heads as you start to use it regularly.
Mep is certainly right about getting much better results with a 1/2 track 15ips machine but a lot of the noise can be removed within current editing software or you could get a lite version of something like Sound Soap. I've never heard a plug-in that can emulate tape very well especially on something like drums.
So if you haven't committed to the A-77 you might consider an Otari or maybe the Ampex mep suggested (I have no personal experience with those so I bow to the opinions of those who have). But if you have, it's a nice deck to learn on as long as it's be taken care of. IMHO, it's always better to start out with something that's reliable since frustrations can push anyone away from a media type.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
 HE Audio Jades

Offline funbebop

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2009, 09:17:33 PM »
Hi Guys,

thanks for the replies...I'm new to the reel thing...I knew it would have hiss, etc.  Like I said , it's more of hobby...sure, I think it's cool to watch the reels spin :)   However, I do believe that there is some tone that comes from these nice machines from yesteryear...of course, the tube machines ooze tone, but also have alot of issues especially with wow/flutter and mostly pitch...I thought the Revox would be decent since it was mostly a Studer "design" and it had servo motors...however, the hiss really doesn't bother me as bad as some might think...if it did, I will result to "digital" but the analog has a breathe quality and a dynamic and tone I just don't hear with digital especially with music originally recorded analog...the 15 ips thing kinda scares me because of the cost and then I'm almost in a master quality issue...I'd like to get the revox modified to 2 track but that's gonna be a poor investment overall...I probably should look at a different machine...my next big question is: where to get decent reel tape that's not crap, nor too expensive...?



Offline ironbut

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2009, 10:34:50 PM »
I think that you'll be able to get the "tape" sound from even the best machine if you have it set up correctly. If I were you, I'd try and develop a relationship with the local shop that you were going to get the Revox from. It would be a good idea to have someone you can take any machine to. These machines are old enough to vote after all and even one that was in perfect running condition will require a little lube and tune up to get running trouble free. That said, I'd look for an Otari 5050. There are lots of variations of these machines. For recording purposes I think that just about any of the many models will have the features you want. They all run at 2 speeds either 3 3/4 and 7 1/2 ips or 7 1/2 and 15 ips but these two speeds can be switched internally so the front panel switch is just hi/low speeds depending on the internal switch. They all record 1/2 track and some have 1/2 and 1/4 track playback heads (so some are 3 head and some are 4 head). The great thing about these machines is that they're excellent and there's one under every rock and bridge. They were used in studios, radio stations tv/video production, just about everywhere. This has kept the used prices crazy low but buyer beware! These production facilities beat the heck out of these things sometimes so try and find some locally and at least look at them before you buy. I think this is where a good working relationship with a shop really comes in handy since sometimes you can have them look at it and give you an estimate on what it would cost to get it running reliably. You might ask them if they know of someone with one since a lot of times folks will take their machines in before they put em up on the auction block.
Like I said, I'm not personally familiar with the Ampex ATR700 aside that they were made by Teac for Ampex. But the Otari's are pretty popular and the problems that they have from age and long term storage are pretty well known to the reel to reel community and that's a major plus IMHO. There's nothing like having a specific problem, posting a query on a forum and having guys fighting over who's going to help you (or what's the best solution).
One thing that is a stumbling block for some guys is they do have XLR connections. It's switchable from +4>-10dB output and input. It's easy to make adapter cables though (and cheap too) but I thought I'd let you know.
You can download an owners manual here (it's a RAR file but you can find free tools to open them easily) http://www.analogrules.com/
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
 HE Audio Jades

Offline funbebop

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 06:59:42 PM »
Hi Iron,

thanks so much for the replies...here's what I do know about the machine...I'm getting for a decent price...it's very clean, one owner and from what I've seen looks brand new somewhat...he said, it came from an estate (it had donation written on the post it, so I know he didn't pay anything for it)  it was purchased from the leading audiophile store in the 70's in our town...he said, he needs to put it on the bench have somebody go through it to make sure it's all ready to go - the store is "magnetic tape recorder co." in Louisville, ky.  it's been there for a long time, and Charlie Green has been the owner since the early 70's or so...he's a nice down to earth guy...that's not a flim flam guy and his tech's seem to be very competent...I took my Dynaco ST-70 and he treated me right with a nice NOS tube plus service for about 60 bucks...

I'm a local musician that plays with tube amps and vintage equipment, and my local shop and I seen to have hit it off and remember the old days...I feel pretty good with him and his tech's...I try to promote his biz, so I would be one of the last people to want to treat badly...alot of musicians and local stores take stuff to get fixed there becuase his guys can fix alot of things...I hope to start a  "analog audiophile group" in my city sometime soon for others to get together and socialize (trade tapes, etc.)

I suppose the only thing I'll need to learn is how to maintain my machine...alignment, cleaning , etc.  hopefully, folks here in the forums and in conjunction with my local shop I'll be able to figure it out...

thanks again - funbebop

Offline sound signal

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 07:43:21 PM »
Hi,

Welcome to the world of open-reel tape, i am sure you will discover a new world of quality analogue sound recording and reproduction.

I acknowledge what Steve and Mark have pointed out about the virtues of machines of more professional design than a Revox, but there are several good things about Revoxes too.

First and foremost, what you have discovered already:  many were bought as a prized possession by music lovers or audiophiles of in the old days and, since the primary media were LP records and FM broadcasts - and, later, CD's - many of these machines ended up being used very seldom.  Since they were engineered to be very rugged, most domestic users' usage patterns hardly put a dent in them.  Professional machines, however, were bought to be used and the best one can hope for is to find a properly maintained example - a barely used one would be a rare find.

Re. tape hiss: on Revoxes, the reference level set at a conservative 250nW/m, with plenty of "lead" to allow for the VU meters' ballistic characteristics.  On my B77 Mk.II with IEC equalisation at 15ips and SM468 tape, same as used by the Tape Project, I have arrived at a setting of 355nW/m - that's 3dB above 250 - and _no_ ballistic compensation which adds another few dB (I don't recall offhand how much was recommended by Revox).  I use this for making live recordings that are more likely to overload the machine than taping off LP's and have noticed no problems with distortion or saturation of the highs (but please note I record acoustic instruments).  I have had similar good results also with copying LP's at both 15 and 7 1/2ips.  The reason Revox used such a conservative setting was, I suppose, that they allowed for domestic tapes of much lower performance than the professional SM468, which was available back in the day but was largely unknown to home users, and they would also have allowed a margin for user error.  So you are looking at, say, 6dB or more improvement in signal to noise ratio just from re-setting the reference level and VU meters to take advantage of pro-grade tape.   The B77 electronics seem to have more than adequate headroom for this adjustment, I haven't had an A77 but I don't suppose its electronics would differ widely in available headroom from those of the B77.

About conversion to two-track format, all you need to do is change the heads and possibly a few components in the bias oscillator as well.  I don't have an A77 manual.  But I have done conversions on B77's and A700's, given the heads the conversion is easy.  It depends if you want the two-track format.  If the machine needs the heads replaced I would convert it to two track.  But four track has its advantages too, especially when copying LP's where four track at 7 1/2ips is more than adequate quality for most LP's.  Tape is expensive, four track gives you double the time but the heads have to be very carefully aligned to avoid "dead channel" crosstalk.

The other good thing is that the wearing parts are available and reasonably priced, and there are very few of them in each machine... it's a very simple transport.

By the way, when copying from LP's, monitor on headphones with your speakers silent.  The absence of acoustic feedback to your turntable improves its performance to the extent that you may notice better performance from your copy tape when playing back from loudspeakers than when playing back from the turntable over loudspeakers.  I've posted before in this forum about this in a thread about copying LP's.  A Revox is good enough to show that difference even with high quality turntables, in my experience.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to post or PM me.

With best regards,
George Karaolides
Nicosia, Cyprus

Offline funbebop

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2009, 07:14:32 PM »
Thank you so much for the reply...I'm pretty sure that the A77 model that I'm going to get has barely any hours...it came from a estate and was givin to the store becuase the family didn't want to sell it or anything , they simply wanted to get rid of it.  I'm getting it for a decent price, and basically the local shop is just checking it out getting it up to par.  The owner believes that it's been in storage for over 25 years.  I'm not sure what model it is though.  I'm probably going to stick with 4 track, if I want to get really HQ I would get a machine that can handle 15 ips.  I'm fairly sure that A 77 highest speed is 7 1/2 ips stock.  So far, I've got 2 NOS sealed reels of 7" Ampex 641 tape, and just ordered 40 reels of Ampex 641 "generic" from a guy in Tx.  (hopefully, I didn't get ripped off since I'm newbie)  I probably have better s/n ratio with my Yamaha KX-630 cassette deck with dolby HX pro and a metal cassette, but I don't think I will get the tone with cassette that I will with open reel, nor the brink of saturation.  I find the HX pro on my cassette deck to "bias" sounding and thin.  My biggest challenge will be cleaing and alignment.  I might be doing some on location Jazz recording in my town; I've been blessed by the local scene to record many local and national acts.  It would be neat to be able to get some LP's pressed from some pure analog recording; however, a better machine would be better. ( I still run my digital rig too ) However, in due time , in due time :)

Offline stellavox

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Re: new to group - future Revox A-77 owner !
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2009, 06:06:19 PM »
Congratulations,

I always tell a "newcomer" that the A77 may be the best "starter" deck to own; as they are built like a tank; can be had very reasonably; and parts will be available forever (which I define as my lifetime).

They can also sound VERY good if you replace certain coupling capacitors.  I did a review of all the mods that were published about the machine, including an almost complete rebuild published in a Danish magazine.  It's somewhere in the files section of the yahoogroups reel-to-reel chatroom.

Charles 


Offline stellavox

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A-77 noise - followup
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2009, 09:11:54 AM »
Checked my A77 info regarding noise:

Playback - Per Charles Repka's A77 mod article in an old issue of Audio Amateur (4/81), alignment instructions in the manual say to play the reference tone on the test tape and set the set the output to 2 volts.  This is a LOT of preamp gain (and probable internal noise), and the preamp apparently clips at 5 volts.  He suggests (and I concur) setting the output level at 775mv (0db) which markedly increases headroom while lowering the noise.

Record - As with many European decks I've seen, ALL inputs pass through the input (microphone) amplifier; high level inputs are just attenuated first (then amplified again - along with the transistor noise).  So if you are only going to record from a high level source, bypass the input amplifier.  The Swedish modification article mentioned that adding a new RC filter in the record amplifier (add a 47K ohm resistor between the B+ and the 100K Q501 collector resistor and put a 10uf capacitor between that junction and ground) can increase the signal to noise ratio by 20dB. I have not verified this mod.

Angus McKenzie also discussed some other noise reduction techniques in a 1972 Studio Sound article.   

Charles