Lucky Man - E.L.P.

[steveidosound]

I'd love to hear that ELP album again. I haven't heard that one in years. It was a real fuse buster in it's day (I believe that it came out right at the height of the Phase Linear 400 era).

I think it's great when members step off the main path and experiment. We are after all, way out here as far as most folks are concerned so why the heck not.

Ah yes, Lucky Man from Emerson Lake and Palmer. That one was a torture test when new. Could your speakers reproduce the  fundamental of that synth note  with the drums at the end? Could your cartridge track it cleanly, being the last cut? Or would your speakers flap and your amp clip. Most of my friends and I were dealing with medium efficiency acoustic suspension speakers driven by 10W per channel solid state stereo receivers and some Garrard or BSR changer with a cheap cartridge. They mostly could not deal with it. :)
And the "Flame Linear" 400 ! I remember making jokes about exactly that right after high school. Phase 400s blowing up trying to reproduce Lucky Man at high levels through AR speakers. Memories...

I am continuing this side discussion  as a new topic under general discussion...

[steveidosound]

So, after some emails with Astrotoy, who obtained a copy of the record, I decided to do an experiment to see whether all this was just exaggerated memories or if there was something to it.
Here is what I found.

 I hooked up several speakers I knew had decent low frequency response and tried playing the record. I heard the hint of something below the overtones on the last synth. note that is held. But was I imagining things? I decided to hook a turntable output to my oscilloscope and check it against a frequency generator I have.

 I determined that the song is in the key of "D" and the note in question was in fact D. I am terrible with math, but have tools and the Internet, so I found a chart which listed 2 that it could be. As you know, an octave doubles the frequency, so, was I hearing D/1 @ 36.71 Hz or D/2 @ 73.42 Hz ? Or even the next one at 146.83?

 So, setting my scope to  5ms/div. let me see 200Hz as 10 cycles across the screen with it's 10 divisions and 20Hz as one cycle across the entire screen.

 Although the waveforms from the Moog are very "dirty" and there are other things like kick drum disturbing the waveform until it is almost at surface noise level, I was able to observe D/2 at 73.42 on the loud notes as roughly 4 peaks across the screen, then the octave drop as around 2 - in other words, the last D is the one at 36.71 and it is there, though it has overtones galore.

 That is not particularly low however by comparison to  a 16.35Hz C/0 organ pedal. For reference, the lowest open note on an electric bass is E/1 at 41.20 Hz.

 BTW, I determined there was no infrasonic filter in the phono stage I was using by the unscientific method of making the floor (suspended, not solid slab) "quake" and watching very low partial cycle waveforms jump on the screen below 10Hz. Not very good damping or isolation in my temporary setup for this test!

 So, there is a 36.71 D fundamental tone on the record at the end, and the one that blasts through louder and sounds as if it caused the recording chain to limit  is the next octave up at 73.42.

 Dirty loud waveforms below 100Hz were probably enough to tax some early solid state amps with speakers that might have impedance dips near these frequencies, so I guess the myth is more or less true...

[mep]

Steve-I am not sure what ?myth? you are trying to prove or disprove.  There is no doubt that the cut Lucky Man contains bottom octave information (20-40Hz) which you seem to have verified for yourself.  And since this cut was able to shut down the Pass Labs X250 I used to own (which I would not consider an ?early? SS amplifier), the fact remains that it still can be a stress test for your stereo system when played back at realistic levels (read live sounding).  Most importantly, I just think it is a really good sounding recording that is fun to listen to.

As far as the bottom end goes on this recording, the sounds of the synthesizer bass notes as well as the kick drum at the end of the recording are anything but faint sounding or subtle.  You shouldn?t have to wonder if you were imagining things or think that you might have heard a ?hint? of something.  Rather, it should be a series of pressure waves that pushes you back in your listening chair.  If you don?t hear that/feel that, then part or parts of your reproduction chain are lacking.  And since most speakers don?t really reproduce 20-40 Hz cleanly (if at all), they would be my first suspect.

With regards to 36 Hz not being as low as an organ reproducing 16 Hz, of course you are right.  16 Hz will be felt more than heard, but the average person will never hear 16 Hz on their home stereo.  They would probably be lucky to hear the third harmonic at 48 Hz.  I never meant to imply that Lucky Man had the lowest bass you have ever heard on a recording; just that it is a good sounding recording that will stress your system and it does create bass pressure waves that you can hear and feel if your system is up to the task.

[steveidosound]

MEP,
Sorry, what I posted last night was a slight rework of my email to Larry, (astrotoy) who after listening to the record on his system which some of us have heard, and is a very high quality system with excellent balance, frequency response and bass extension, was somewhat underwhelmed.

Didn't mean to contradict what you are hearing. Your comments and Ironbut Steve's comments reminded me of the lore that was going around back when the record was first out when I was just finishing High School. For the record, I have actually never seen a system shut down, blow up, or otherwise do anything beyond obviously clip the amp, mis-track the record, or simply not reproduce the fundamental bass due to lack of bottom octave response. The Moog does produce anything but pure tones so there are things to hear in the next octave or two up, even on that last low sustained D note.

I would love to find a copy on 4 track reel to reel. I might just go buy the CD. Re-listening to the whole album, by today's standards , many parts suffer from bad mastering, with a fair amount of distortion on a rather compressed treble range, very typical of that era rock recordings. Some parts' including Lucky Man are better in this respect, even though it is the last cut. I also have it on the "Best of" Lp, where it is cut 2 and it sounds the same to me. My cartridge (a couple of them actually) verified this, in that they play through a lot of other high level hot cuts cleanly, but parts of the ELP album are really bad. Although my copy has been in my hands since the 70s, by now I think I can tell if it is due to mis-tracking as it is being played, wear from previous mistracking, or bad mastering, and this to me just sounds like bad over cut mastering in places.
 
The speakers I was using by my test with a generator and RTA, in my room, have decent response to below 35Hz and even a little bump around 40 to 80, so they should cover the low D note OK. I was not playing it at "concert" levels however. I would think you might be right if you played it so the average spl over the cut was around 100dB  in a listening room. Then the drama you state might be closer to happening. There is always the possibility that the bottom of your system response is tipped up over flat in your room - that would make it more dramatic for sure!

Anyway, time has passed, and it is not the "be all end all" demo disc that I remembered from my youth, but yes, still quite fun to listen to loud, with very dynamic bass in parts. I had forgotten till I listened to the whole album about the end of the drum solo in "Tank", the track before "Lucky Man"

P.S. In looking at your speakers you have listed - I guess you have BASS ! :)

[mep]

Steve,
I still stand by every word I said in my original post concerning how great this cut sounded when transferred from the original 4 track tape that I own to 15 ips 2 track on my Otari MX-55 and played back through my Ampex 350s.  This was my first post before I got carried away (because I wanted other people to have a chance to hear what I hear) and stuck my foot in my mouth and I apologized to Doc publically on the forum.

As for Larry buying a copy of the LP and being underwhelmed, I really don't know what to say.  Even the LP played straight up through my system sounds very good and you will hear the bottom end I was talking about (just not quite the same way as I previously explained). But, you won't hear the other things I discussed in my original post via the LP-at least in my system.  I know that Larry has an excellent system but he really needs to comment on what he did or didn't hear.

With regards to your comments on the overall mastering quality of this LP, I will have to go back and listen to the rest of the cuts before I can comment.   Lucky Man and Take a Pebble are my favorite cuts and the ones I usually listen to.  If you have the Atlantic version of this LP vice the Cotillion, you really don't have much.  Whomever remastered it for Atlantic wiped off the entire bottom end.  It's almost funny to listen to both of them back to back unless you just paid good money for the Atlantic copy.  I don't own this on CD so I can't comment on that version.  I bought 3 different versions on two formats and that is enough.

[steveidosound]

With regards to your comments on the overall mastering quality of this LP, I will have to go back and listen to the rest of the cuts before I can comment.   Lucky Man and Take a Pebble are my favorite cuts and the ones I usually listen to.  If you have the Atlantic version of this LP vice the Cotillion, you really don't have much.  Whomever remastered it for Atlantic wiped off the entire bottom end.  It's almost funny to listen to both of them back to back unless you just paid good money for the Atlantic copy.  I don't own this on CD so I can't comment on that version.  I bought 3 different versions on two formats and that is enough.

I do have the cotillion but I have to slightly retract my comments on the overall mastering quality of the album. I remembered it from the old days as not very clean on the top end.
I have a bunch of different equipment. When I was doing my tests I was using a turntable / cartridge combination that tracks other albums well but is pretty detailed and revealing, and I was using some speakers with really good bottom end but they have horns that are a bit bright and hard themselves. So the combination of all of the above led me to the worst possible impression. It is average for a rock record of that era - about the same as I remember my old YES records. Not the greatest and not as good as the blood Sweat and Tears or Cat Stevens you also liked. I can completely agree with you on those :)

[astrotoy]

I played Lucky Man through my system first without the subwoofer engaged (Velodyne DD-18). I was underwhelmed. Then after communicating with Mark and Steve, I engaged the sub. It is much more powerful in the bass. I am now "whelmed." It has some good deep bass. This may be the first progressive rock album I have played (just the Lucky Man cut). Maybe Dark Side of the Moon or Rumours qualify also. Don't know enough here about this genre to accurately comment. I do like Tea for the Tillerman, Abbey Road, and Hot August Nights, if they qualify as progressive rock. :-) 

For really deep bass, I just played the first side of Reference Recording's "Pomps and Pipes" with the sub engaged. I have just been overwhelmed. My body was literally shaken by the deep organ notes. Noticed in the liner notes that our own Paul S. was responsible for the half speed mastering, along with Tam Henderson and Keith Johnson, way back in '93.  Larry

[mikel]

my Evolution Acoustics MM3 speakers do decend to the depths (questionable how musically significant that is in general). they have 2 powered 15" subwoofers in built-in in sealed cabinets. i did have a pair of JL Audio f113 Fathoms for a year in-room for multi-channel music but the MM3's did a better overall job on the bass than the Fathoms and went deeper and stayed cleaner.

the MM3's are rated at -6db at 7hz and measure flat at 10hz in room. i do have a slight dip at 30hz in room but it still measures quite flat at 20hz. so my system does deep bass. i have lots of digital music with crazy deep bass that i play when in the mood for it.....or to demo for visitors.

this morning i played Lucky Man on Coltillion, last cut on side two.....on both my Rockport tt and recently re-plinthed Technics SP-10 Mk3. then i played the whole side 2 on the SP-10. cut 1, side two, played on the Royal Festival Hall Organ, has deeper bass than Lucky Man. but no doubt Lucky Man has plenty of meaty bass riffs, as well as underlying sustained bass stuff here and there. i do not use any low-frequency filter on my vinyl.

back in the 70's and 80's i had a number of tt's and really; they had many issues which restricted their ability to track a record properly. my experience is that it is the distortion which causes amps and speakers to stress. todays best tt's, arms and cartridges should have no problem tracking this record....mine certainly did not break a sweat extracting everything on this record. i have lots of Lps with more and deeper bass. i'm not one to measure bass so i cannot say just how deep things get with Lucky Man on my system.

i have not played E,L and P for a few years......i enjoyed it.

[ironbut]

Wow Mike,.. those speakers sound like they must be excellent. From the reviews I read your amps must be excellent with them too. I'd love to hear them someday.
I think that low bass production really brings out the kid in me. When it comes to my mids and high frequencies I get just a little to darn serious sometimes. It's amazing how much low bass energy there is in live music and I really think that it's production got a bad name in the past from poorly set-up subs.