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Author Topic: Resistors used in PR99  (Read 16408 times)

Offline Cyrano

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Resistors used in PR99
« on: May 30, 2009, 02:54:46 AM »

Hi,

Does someone recall what resistors make/brand Revox used in their R2R decks.  I need to install a few 10k & 15k on output PCB.

Thanx
ANdrew 

Offline microstrip

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2009, 12:07:34 PM »
Hi,
I have the output board of my PR99 mk3 in front of me. Although the service manual specifies only   .25w. 5% MF , most of the resistors are 2%, .25W precision resistors, some positions being 1%. I think that any .25W 1% metal film of known brand coming from a respectable dealer will be perfect. It is one point where the PR99 is much better than the B77 series - resistors are much higher quality.
Although I was pleased to see that ICs (Texas Instruments RC 4558) were manufactured in Portugal in 1989  I am considering replacing them with mere recent ICs having a better power supply rejection ratio.
Francisco

Offline Cyrano

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2009, 02:54:38 PM »

Exactly, MF 1%, but what brand could it be?  I have got board with missing resistors in local PS voltage dividers (10k, 15k, 10R) and after trying a few I have got on hand (A-N, Shinkoh, Riken, PRP) they all sound so different that I would go for the originals to know the base line and than experiment with mix/match.  Any idea, maybe Roederstein Resista old timer? 

I have tried to test a couple in another circuit to figure this out and they have very distinct transparent/punchy with not much in fact of a body in midrange topped with quite a lot of pronounced hights but without ringing sound, this is airy kind of sound, thin in mids, energetic/fast on extremes.  They are exactly the opposite to the ones I have tried.     

I think RC4559 is what makes the sound of this deck, they are very popular in guitar pedals for their unprecedented transparency and bold midrange with excellent bottom end and very good vocal presentation.  They have a drive and a presence you would be hard pressed to match that without extensively redoing raw power supply with all local PS to create new base line sound for whatever chip you would use.  Those resistors are very much the best complementary match for their sound, elcos/mica are grainy junk but others in nF range add vintage sound, all together a lot of pleasing distortions.  Modern opamps sound in direct replacement too electronic first, too light or too heavy second with no vocals third in comparison, I had to replace some and I ended up with sourcing NOS.  They used them extensively and they set the tune.  It might help in your research.

Tnx
ANdrew   

Offline Tubes n tapes

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2009, 06:21:58 PM »
Andrew,

The later Revox machines used mainly Beyschlag resistors. The older machines were Roederstein if I'm not mistaken. Both brands don't exist anymore since both were absorbed by Vishay. The earlier Roederstein resistors were crap, so you wouldn't want to use those anymore. The Beyschlag resistors were very good. In any case I recommend the MRS25 resistors (formerly Philips) for replacement. They are very comparable to the original Beyschlags. You can easily get the MRS25 from Digikey.

If you are interested, here is a link to an article I wrote about using the B77/PR99 for the Tape Project Tapes.

http://laocaudiosociety.com/tech.html

Arian Jansen.

SonoruS Audio.
VP of technology of the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society (LAOCAS).
ESL/OTL builder and modest Studer/ReVox collector.

Offline Cyrano

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2009, 10:39:25 PM »
Arian,

You got it, this is BC taken over by Vishay

http://www.vishay.com/docs/28724/28724.pdf

Lets see if there is anything left...


Thnx
ANdrew

Offline Cyrano

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2009, 10:59:23 PM »
and this is the real one...

http://www.vishay.com/docs/28766/28766.pdf

Thnx

ANdrew

Offline Cyrano

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2009, 03:06:43 PM »

Arian,

To be sure, Beyschlag resistors are light blue and earlier Roederstein are burgundy?  The record amp is 100% populated with burgundy resistors and repro amp is 100% light blue.  i can see also  a few a bit darker light blue used and those have exposed end caps sides, those spots are not covered with paint like light blue are.

Thank you
ANdrew

Offline tapepath

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2009, 10:09:59 AM »
Hello,
I can highly recommend the Vishay S102 series of bulk metal foil resistors, especially in circuit path and head loading positions. I believe what causes a great deal of the so-called "transistor sound" can be attributed to what the resistors are adding. I can recommend contacting Ms. Lopez at [email protected] who works in customer service for the Texas Components Company for help in ordering specific values. They are expensive when compared to other resisitors but are worth it, in my opinion.
Cheers! Ken

Offline Cyrano

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 07:16:08 PM »
Ken,

Thank you for sharing your experience, it is tremendous work hardly documented but well worth it.  I have not tried Vishay S102.  I went for Shinkoh and AudioNote resistors, the cost of S102 is prohibitive.  I have to admit I was not aware how different sound have original but different resistors, If I only knew that light blue are so different from others I would keep them.  Initially I tried brown and burgundy in other circuitry so my conclusion was wrong.  Now after going through the process I can see how they selected resistors, they used different set for power delivery and different set for EQ and signal and because power delivery is unique and different per each PCB now it makes sense to me.  I have PR99MKIII and different PCB have different sets of resistors, I assumed they are of the same 'house sound' after trying values which I could directly swap somewhere else to evaluate their sonic attributes, bad luck that those values where of those colours.   
But Shinkoh/AN are so wonderfull that no harm done here, however /and it was for good/ it forced me to research Opamps and redo power supply as I guess you had to do to hide now noticeable distortions and correct overall balance.  I used for signal BG/N and for local power decoupling BG/FK, I would say nothing else could do it at all.  Power supply is very hard to mod as space is limited and you have to be creative, I settled down with exact mirrored stack of PIO/SilverMica/Styrene in place of 2200uF and 68nF, the raw capacitor is Nippon ChemiCon SMH 2200/160V and Cadj is BG/N with K72 Russian teflon.  Quite a few but they fit.  Bridge I replaced with MUR860 (other faster/newer were not even close). 
Power delivery to different boards is quite interesting, C1 on repro amp is a good example, little guy (68n stack mica) of profound impact on everything coming out from this deck except recorded tape.  It took me a while to realize its role on repro and output amp boards. 

I am sure you have quite a story after going over.  Farnell sells light blue vishay, they are complementary to Shinkoh/AN in my version and cost dimes and of course they are happy in power delivery across all boards.  S102 I will try for head compensation.  Thanks for the tip.

ANdrew     

Offline tapepath

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2009, 11:05:56 AM »
Hello Andrew,
Thank you, very much, for the information on the other resistors you have had success with. I can remember in the early 1970's when my friends and I were trying the Corning glass composition resistors for the Dynaco tube pre-amps and power amps we were modifying. Then we tried the original Roederstein Resisita brand of resistors, each change seemed to lift a layer of "grunge" from the sound. I can remember J. Gordon Holt describing the sound as the sound grains of uncooked rice makes as it goes across a sheet of paper held at an angle. That always stuck in my brain, a gritty grainy quality especially noticeable on stringed instruments. To me, resistors, especially found in tape recorder electronics seem to be related to this sound I don't know exactly why but they do.
I appreciate the information on the various capacitors you've used, very much appreciated. I've thought about adding a separate power supply for the playback electronics in my PR99 playback only deck, there's lots of spare room there!
Cheers, Ken

Offline Cyrano

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Re: Resistors used in PR99
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2009, 11:10:06 PM »
Ken,

This is never ending story and you know well what I mean.
I went over so many different caps in power supply/decoupling that it became in fact more and more apparent to me that this is the key in Revox design.  I have been eyeballing thier other pro designes wishing to grab some ideas but there is no way, this is one way street.  The objective in my case was the noise and distortions and resolution together and while it is no brainer to swap those OK Philips signal caps with nice BG/N you are getting straight into the trap, you are loosing the meat obtaining in return uninvolving texture-less with twisted dynamics sound.  Attack/decay are so off and the weight behind the notes is so pale that you have no other option that proceed deeper and deeper hehe.  So this innocent logical step hey lets swap those old and dry caps is very deceiving, particularly in multistage device like this deck.  I have found all caps to hold perfect BTW.  But like you have said and emphasized a few times the grain, that is the most funky part.  You change one cap and disaster strikes 'the grain is roaring'.  Well you wait wait and it is not going away until to tackle the supply gang, the end of story.  I tried usual suspects and BG has won hands down, but you know that you dont know how it will go until you have tried all options before you are sure.  You never know what is the source of the problem, the better cap or remaining ones maybe combination, go figure.  So it takes time and money at the end but it can be done.  While I was lucky with tantalum resistors as a replacement, the most pesky in fact are mica pF range comp caps.  What they have used is grain and nothing but the grain generator, but they bring authority and a kick hard to get from very limited offering at present.  20pF-200pF is available as styrene and some silver mica (mostly guitar blend) and russian monsters.  Silver mica like CDM available all over the web could not cut it, they were too electronic with a grain but otherwise with good dynamics and drive, good styrene are very hard to get unless you like thin super thin sound of industrial sort.  I have got tons Philips/Rohm/Noble/TRW/ etc  but only Mial NOS 600V worked very well.  There is also very very good Russian silver-mica but only in 120pF 350V  (good for 150pF and 100pF spots) difficult to mount but superb.  The rest nF is RTX and RTE, they work fine.  In all cases what you have to watch out for is a constant sanitation of the sound, every time you go for better cap you will loose some harmonics and fatness of the sound and this is why I had to deal with resistors and use PIO caps in power supply (remember these are vintage PC PP MMK PEPT caps replaced with styrene).  Opamps are the simplest, there is only a handfull to try and you would prefer to use the same type all over the boards of course.  Their sound is very distinct you would know in 1 minute which way to go /love and hate.  You will never go back. 
Repro decoupling I think is good,  each stage has in close proximity sufficient storage.  Don't forget about C1 , it is a key to the sound, you don't need more than 68n but the best you can afford.  Because of the distance it feeds output amp too..  BG/FK sound better than BG/N for 22uF and 100uF local decoupling in my tests.  For 4.7uF i used BG/N.  Cerafine caps are unbearably thin sounding, FM will about match what is already there less grain.  Ground planes on the cross connect board are quite thoughfull to better overall delivery considering local decoupling.  You know you could mod it to use tube stage?   

Best
Andrew